Understanding Revelation

[BobRyan]

BobRyan,

BobRyan, you saying the Church will reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years, then I ask you, what will be happen to earth during 1000 years???? You have to show verse to prove us what will be happen to the earth during 1000 years according as what SDA teaching.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Rev 20:4-5 shows the ”First Resurrection” Which is the resurrection of the saints the “dead in Christ” as Paul says in 1Thess 4 at our “Gathering together to Him” 2Thess 2:1-4 a the “Coming of the Lord” (Both 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 point that out).

Rev 19 says that the living wicked are destroyed by fire and by the sword that comes from Christ “at the coming of the Lord” – it says “The rest were killed by the sword” that comes from Christ. Vs 21

At that time Christ raptures the church (in the singular event He promised in John 14) and we are taken to heaven both the living AND the dead (raised at the First Resurrection).

So what about the earth? That leaves “no one” here – so does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another? No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind


Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killedwith the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleyswith your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.


Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.



Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


] Zeph 1:18[/b]
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,[/b][/quote]

[/b]
It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.

 

[BobRyan]

And yet this is “before” the Great White Throne judgment and the final burning in the lake of Fire and brimstone of all raised in the 2nd resurrection – who then suffer the 2nd death – which is the lake of fire and brimstone. So this condition is indeed “temporary”.

Isaiah 24
22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

Those who reject the millennium or the first resurrection rapture described in Rev 20 often declare that such conditions as we see described here -
can not exist and should be ignored.

==============

FEAST of the Birds

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind

Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killedwith the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The two phases of The Second Return of Messiah Jesus:
1. to get His own
2. to 'get' the bad guys & antichrist

//It is a SINGLE event in John's account John 14:1-3 ... //

Yes, one event = the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of
the saints.

// ... and
it is a SINGLE event in John's account Rev 20:4-5
"THE FIRST resurrection"//

Again, 'first' does not imply 'one and only one'.
If one knew the first thing about 'first' one would
realise it is DIFFERENT from 'one and only one'.
When people AND God want to talk about
'one and only one' they say 'one and only one' (or
something similiar).
Anyway, there are two (some say three) groups of
people in Revelation 20:4.

Note, two seperate groups:
A. those on thrones
The pretribualtion rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
B. those beheaded during the Great Tribulation
The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Jewish Tribulation Saints

But it is a dual event in the following three places:

I.
2 Thessalonians 1:1 (NASB):
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him, ...

Note, two seperate events:
A. 'our gathering together to Him'
The pretribualtion rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
B. 'coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'
The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Jewish Tribulation Saints

II.
Titus 2:13 (NASB):
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing
of the glory of our
great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Note, two seperate events:
A. 'blessed hope'
The pretribualtion rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
B. appearing of the glory
The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Jewish Tribulation Saints

III.
Matthew 24:28-31

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days
THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON
WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS
WILL FALL from the sky, and
the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the SON OF MAN
COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY
with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET
and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect
from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Things that seperate Matthew 24:29-30 from v.31:

A. the same split as in 2 Thess 2:1 & Titus 2:13

1) "GATHER TOGETHER His elect"
The pretribualtion rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
2) the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY
The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Jewish Tribulation Saints

B "SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY"
The clouds are NOT water clouds here, they are Millions of
white robed Saints coming from heaven on white horses
-- at at distance of 1,000 or 100 miles, it will look like a
white water cloud.
This group are those who were raised at t he pretribualtion
rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
In Matthew 24:30 the Lord arrives with the saints after the
'Tribulation of that day'; In matthew 24:31 the Lord is picking
up the saints.

C. In Matthew 24:30 the folks on earth will morn
"then all the tribes of the earth will mourn".
In Matathew 24:31 the saints (elect) will rejoice
-- this is the part we are looking for, not the part where
Jesus wups up on the Antichrist & his folk.

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //Ed Edwards,

In my early Christian life, I was in your shoe. I used to believe the same things as what you mentioned on Revelation. I used to believe chapter 2 and 3 represent the history of Church for example, the first church occured in between 30 A.D. to 100 A.D., second church occured in year from 100 A.D. to 325 A.D. blah, blah.... But I realized, there is no hint in chapter 2 and 3 telling us what year of period, which church, we are in right now. //

You may have me confused with another person. Unfortunately just this week I'm on record as saying similiar to WHAT YOU SAID:

"My understanding of chapter 2 and 3 showing us, there were literal seven churches in local of Asia(now Turkey) during John's time"

So Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

Are you familiar with 'extrapolation'? 'Extrapolation' means 'to compute outside the given data'. That is what those who say the 7-sub-ages are doing: computing outside the given data (that is, the Bible). It is about as wasted an effort to figure as Clarence Larkin's drawings of the Great Pyramid of Egypt. If you go by his figures, you will find we are in the Millennial Messianic Kingdom :laugh:

Ed, I'm familiar with extrapolation. The problem with that view is that it is an extrapolation and not biblical.

I want to see it is Scripture. For now I see it as mere speculations and one is as good as another.

 

[BobRyan]

John Gill provides an interesting explanation of the 7 church ages in Rev 2 and 3.

I will post some of this if you are interested.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Crabtownboy]

IMHO no one understand Revelation.

 

[steaver]

IMHO no one understand Revelation.

Just a friendly reminded Crabtownboy, don't forget your post in the sda abortion thread.

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed, I'm familiar with extrapolation. The problem with that view is that it is an extrapolation and not biblical.

I want to see it is Scripture. For now I see it as mere speculations and one is as good as another.

You may be the only one who understands that.

Here is how extrapolation works with the Bible.
You study parts of the Bible, say SALVATION. You find out how it works now and in past ages and anything it might say about future ages. Then you use that to figure out how salvation works in other future or past ages you know of or speculate might be there.

Example:
consider:
1. the evil prince of Daniel 9
2. the Anthchrist/antichrists of 2 John
3. the Beast from the Sea of 12 Revelation
4. the Man of Sin from 2 Thess 2

If you assume they are all the same and extrapolate from there
you end up with something different then
if you assume they are four different evil persons from the past or the future.
But it is a guess, not what the Bible says. ;I knew a woman from Exciting Central Oklahoma who wrote in two books SEVENTY signs, indications, things that the Antichrist would do -- all 70 were taken from the four passages above as well as some other scriptures. BTW, I've gone down that path and find no contradictions down there. But I'm admiting - it is a 'what if' - not a THUS SAYETH THE LORD.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Daniel 9:24-27 say nothing about Antichrist. It doesn't focus on evil prince. Who's the prince of Dan. 9:24-27? Jesus Christ. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus on Calvary. This passage say nothing of tribulation and rapture. It talking about prophecy of Messiah and cross.

1 John chapter 2 is not talking the final dicator. It talking about able to identify people -'antichrists', these who deny that Christ came to earth in flesh that he is God. Today, we already see many people are antichrists.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

Ed,

Daniel 9:24-27 say nothing about Antichrist. It doesn't focus on evil prince.

Correct!

However there is the section on the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in there --

Who's the prince of Dan. 9:24-27? Jesus Christ. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus on Calvary. This passage say nothing of tribulation and rapture. It talking about prophecy of Messiah and cross.

True.

Amen and Amen!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

You may be the only one who understands that.

Here is how extrapolation works with the Bible.
You study parts of the Bible, say SALVATION. You find out how it works now and in past ages and anything it might say about future ages. Then you use that to figure out how salvation works in other future or past ages you know of or speculate might be there.

Example:
consider:
1. the evil prince of Daniel 9
2. the Anthchrist/antichrists of 2 John
3. the Beast from the Sea of 12 Revelation
4. the Man of Sin from 2 Thess 2

If you assume they are all the same and extrapolate from there
you end up with something different then
if you assume they are four different evil persons from the past or the future.
But it is a guess, not what the Bible says. ;I knew a woman from Exciting Central Oklahoma who wrote in two books SEVENTY signs, indications, things that the Antichrist would do -- all 70 were taken from the four passages above as well as some other scriptures. BTW, I've gone down that path and find no contradictions down there. But I'm admiting - it is a 'what if' - not a THUS SAYETH THE LORD.

So we're back to where we began. Until I'm convinced from Scripture that the 7 churches of the Apocalypse are actually 7 church-periods, I cannot accept the present computations.

 

[antiaging]

Correct!

However there is the section on the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in there --




True.

Amen and Amen!

in Christ,

Bob

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There are two men spoken of in these passages. One is the Messiah and the other is the prince that shall come. Messiah is killed in 9:26, therefore the prince that shall come cannot be Messiah; it just got finished saying Messiah was killed.
The Romans destroyed the sanctuary in 70 AD. The prince that shall come must be of the people of the Romans. Messiah was never a Roman, not by birth or otherwise. So the prince that shall come cannot be Messiah.

 

[antiaging]

I admit that I find your postings to be well thought out and accurate on many points. I appreciate your insights even if there are places where we differ -- no problem (just ask Brother Bob, Pastor Bob, Ed Edwards or HP - people that I agree with in many cases even if sometimes we differ).

As for the millennium "in heaven" the primary reason for that is the combination of 1thess 4 (the dead in Christ rise first) - John 14 (I will come again and receive you to myself is only one promised coming of Christ to receive the saints) and Rev 20 "the FIRST resurrection". Even Matt 24 goes to the same sequence where post-trib the saints are all gathered to Christ. Once - not multiple gathering-of-saints multiple appearings-to-receive-saints, not multiple second-comings to gather sains, not multiple FIRST resurrections of saints (or any of the other gimmicks some have tried to solve that scenario).

If Rev 20 really is THE FIRST resurrection for the saints, if 1Thess 4 really shows the resurrection of the saints happening at Christ's "coming again" and if John 14 is corrrect in saying that Christ will come one time in the future -- just once - and "receive us" to Himself -- then we must be in heaven during the 1000 years that follows the FIRST resurrection.

I freely admit that this is not a view that is shared by all other groups.

But if the premise given above is correct - then this is the correct Bible backed view by all accounts.

in Christ,

Bob

At the end of the 1000 years the camp of the saints in on Earth and it is encompassed by men from Gog and magog lands on Earth. It says that in Revelation. So the camp of the saints was on Earth for the thousand years.
The rapture will get the saints out of the way so that when God's wrath is poured out on Earth, (Armageddon and the works of Earth burnt up like Peter said) the saints will not be hurt by the destruction. The Saints go up, maybe have the marriage supper at that time, and then return with Jesus as part of His army with the angels. The 144,000 are said to be standing with Jesus on Mt. Sion. That means Jesus and them are on the Earth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

So we're back to where we began. Until I'm convinced from Scripture that the 7 churches of the Apocalypse are actually 7 church-periods, I cannot accept the present computations.

Evidently there are some reading this Topic who are exercising their belief in the anti-education doctrine. I recommend that you believe just what you said. I don't think the 7 churchs of Revelation 2-3 are 7 sub-sets of the Church Age. I said as much above. Maybe nobody read all the way through my post?

 

[TCGreek]

Evidently there are some reading this Topic who are exercising their belief in the anti-education doctrine. I recommend that you believe just what you said. I don't think the 7 churchs of Revelation 2-3 are 7 sub-sets of the Church Age. I said as much above. Maybe nobody read all the way through my post?

Ed, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed, thanks for the clarification.

It was a pleasure doing business with you, Beroean, Studious Sir :saint:

 

[Ed Edwards]

... The 144,000 are said to be standing with Jesus on Mt. Sion. That means Jesus and them are on the Earth.

Revelation 14:4C (KJV1611 Edition) said of the 144,000:
...These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits vnto God, and to the Lambe.

These were living on earth during the Church Age - they were saved (codeword: 'redeemed' on earth during the Church Age . They were raptured/resurrected at the pre-tribulation rapture event. The 144,000 are seen first in Chapter 7 just after the rapture event (Revelation 6) where they are rewarded with serving the Lord during the Tribulation period and Messanic Millinnial Kingdom of our (them 144K and us saved folk) Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

At the end of the 1000 years the camp of the saints in on Earth and it is encompassed by men from Gog and magog lands on Earth. It says that in Revelation. So the camp of the saints was on Earth for the thousand years.

.

In Rev 20 we have the fact that AFTER the 1000 years are completed the camp of the saints is on earth -- and in Rev 21 we SEE how that happens - the city filled with the saints descended from heaven.

In Both 20 and 21 the city is on the other AFTER the 1000 years not during and not before.

The dead in Christ "rise FIRST" as we are told in 1thess 4 and this happens at the "FIRST resurrection" as we see in Rev 20 which is the "event" that STARTs the 1000 year clock.

With all the wicked destroyed at the Rev 19 second coming event.

And with all the saints rapture to heaven as we see promised in 1Thess 4 at the "coming again" of Christ mentioned in John 14.

There is nothing but the "desolate earth" and "feast of the birds" as mentioned in the OT and in Rev 19 for this world during that 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It is somewhat amazing that John Gill - author of the first Baptist Commentary on scripture saw this point about the 7 churches and the 7 periods of time covering the time from John's day to the 2nd coming - was in fact the right solution for Revelation.

It tells us that this solution has been around for a long time.

In the same way the 7 seals are ALSO a 7 segment division of time from John's day to the 2nd coming and many today say that this is also true of the Seven trumpets.

They all start with first century events and they all end at the 2nd coming.

But then we have the 7 last plagues - the 7 bowls of wrath. These do not follow the pattern of division-of-time from John to the 2nd coming.

in Christ,

bob