Ed Edwards said:
GE
The literal Greek equivalent for 'atonement' appears but once in the NT (Paul in Romans). But there are many concepts the exact equivalent of 'atoenment', like 'reconciliation'; even plainly, 'forgiveness'!
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Understanding Revelation
- Thread starter antiaging
- Start date
GE
The literal Greek equivalent for 'atonement' appears but once in the NT (Paul in Romans). But there are many concepts the exact equivalent of 'atoenment', like 'reconciliation'; even plainly, 'forgiveness'!
Delete post - table - wont off-load
Ed Edwards said:
GE
I also 'interpret' the '70-weeks' - almost - like the SDA's, but for sure am not dependent on their expositions for believing the Prophecy is 'Christological' from start to finish.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
// Which gets to the OP - "How to Understand Revelation" -
Step 1. -- no "making stuff up" - such as a 7 year timeline in Revelation that is snipped off of one in Dan 9 and tossed to the end of time.//
Did you notice I have debated this statement since page one? If somebody was 'making stuff up' it was God, the ultimate author of the Bible. Yes, God was 'making stuff up' from nothing when He created the Universe. Have I posted my post showing that The Church saved by Messiah was God's plan before creation and the Jews Church was God's plan from creation?
Step 1. -- no "making stuff up" - such as a 7 year timeline in Revelation that is snipped off of one in Dan 9 and tossed to the end of time.//
Did you notice I have debated this statement since page one? If somebody was 'making stuff up' it was God, the ultimate author of the Bible. Yes, God was 'making stuff up' from nothing when He created the Universe. Have I posted my post showing that The Church saved by Messiah was God's plan before creation and the Jews Church was God's plan from creation?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
yes, tables are hard to do through the BB (Baptist Board) message Editor
[Sigh!] After no one took me up on my generous offer to explain Revelation, 
I was going to stay out of the thread, but them decided to read it through, anyway. I'll bold some comments on this one.
[quoted from antiaging]
This is a summary of my understanding of Revelation.
Summary of Revelation:
First 3 chapters are letters to the churches in Asia telling them what is wrong with them and what they need to correct.
First, the entire epistle is addressed to the seven churches(Rev. 1:4), however, Chapter 1 is not in any way addressed to any specific church, but rather is a description of what John saw. Chapters 2 & 3 are addressed specifically and individually to the seven churches, here referred to, in Asia. There were more than seven churches, in Asia, at that time, including Colossae, Derbe, Lystra, and multiple churches in the region of Galatia.
Chapter 4 starts a whole new discourse about what will happen in the future.
Jesus lived without sin and offered Himself a sacrifice for mankind so He prevailed and beat Satan, and He has the right to open the book with the 7 seals. These are the things that will happen on the last 7 years till the end of the age when Jesus returns.
1st seal:
The future evil leader, the antichrist goes forth to conquer the world militarily.
2nd seal:
The leading general of the coquering army starts the war.
3rd seal:
Food is scarce as a result of the war, there is starvation.
4th seal:
Shows that the war is over a 4th of the earth; many will die and go to hell in the war and famine caused by the war.
5th seal:
The antichrist and his servants will kill many saints. The saints will pray for God to take revenge.
6th seal:
Jesus returns, at the end of the 7 years, to take over the world by force. The evil doers are afraid and will hide themselves.
Chapter 7 a completely new vision. 144,000 Jews of Israel will become Christians before the punishments of God are poured out on the Earth.
Scripture does not ever identify these 144,000 sealed saints either as "Christians", or "the church", these two terms being reserved for believers after the resurrection and Pentecost, through the present age, which continues until the 'rapture', and prior to the seven year period, you mention.
Chapter 8: God starts to punish the people of the Earth for their sins as the 7 trumpets blow.
Seems like a meteorite shower causing fires. Seems like a big meteorite, asteroid, or a comet hits the sea and poisons the water killing many people.
Sun partially blocked possibly by large dust cloud caused by the comet or meteorite or asteroid--whatever it will be.
An army of demons is released, like locusts, that will hurt the unsaved men with great pain.-- a sting like a scorpion
Another army of either demons or men making war will cause many men to be killed by fire and smoke.
Men still don't stop sinning; so more punishments will come.
Rev. chapter 10
Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet. That is when the saints will be resurected and the living saints will rise with them to meet Jesus in the air at His return--This is spoken of by Paul; look up last trump
Jesus is going to return, surely enough, and for His saints, but I'm not sure there is any specific evidence that this occurs here, at this point in time. I'd suggest that this more likely applies at Rev. 4:1, where John hears the call of "Come up here..." which occurs "meta tauta" or "after these things" (Rev. 1:19, NASB, Darby, YLT, WYC)
chap. 11
Jerusalem is conquered by the antichrist and his followers and they will walk in Jerusalem for 42 months.
That happens 3.5 years before the end when Jesus comes back.
Two prophets of God testify against the antichrist during the 3.5 years and they speak out punishments on the people for their sins and the punishments happen to men. They will be killed shortly before the end and lie in the street 3 days. Then they will come back to life and be resurected. Then the end comes before Jesus returns.
12
Israel brings forth the Messiah Jesus. Satan was waiting to kill Him. Israel will flee into the wilderness when the antichrist takes over Jerusalem 3.5 years from the end. Satan and his devils will no longer be allowed to enter into heaven to accuse the saints falsely like they did to Job in the old testament. Satan and his devils are denied access to heaven and must stay on the earth. Satan makes war against the Jews that are saved Christians.
13
The beast from the sea; the antichrist the last evil ruler
His kingdom will be like medo persia, large, like greece cunning, he will speak with authority like the babylonian king, Satan will give the antichrist his power.
Another man will cause the world to worship the antichrist and cause a mark or a number or a name to be needed by law in order to buy and sell.
14 Brief vision of the 144,000 Jews that became christians standing on mount Sion.
Another vision:
Warnings given to the Earth that if any worship the antichrist he will be tormented forever in fire.
rev. 14:15,16 Jesus comes and raptures up the saints to meet Him in the air. rev. 14:17-20 Armageddon ---The armies of the Earth are slain in the valley of Megiddo
15 AND 16
The last punishments of God, the vials
This happens mostly during the last 3.5 years.
Sores on the men that worship the antichrist, the sea becomes like blood- either a large amount of iron oxide in the water are a reference to all on the sea dying, rivers and fountains of water become blood. --Possibly a large amount of iron oxide (rust) in the water from a large amount of iron in the sea from the asteroid that hit. (Iron oxide in the hemoglobin is what gives blood the red color)-- or blood being used figuratevely to indicate death. (Why not actual blood, here? The actual text seems to suggest this.) Men scorched with fire and heat and in pain with darkness.
Men still will not repent of their evil.
Euphrates river is dried up so that the armies from the East can come to the valley of Megiddo for armageddon to happen. Devils go out to bring the armies there. Great earthquake and great hail causing destruction. This is shortly before Jesus returns.
A new vision:
It is about a false religion, the woman or harlot. It is the babylonian mystery religion, baal worship. It rules over 7 kingdoms which oppress Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo persia, Greece, are the 5 that are fallen. Rome is the one that is. Revived Rome made of 10 nations from the european union will be the 7th. The form of Baal worship that rules in Rome now, will rule over the 7th kingdom. See the Two Bablylons by Hislop on Google.
While I do not disagree, here, I'd suggest that one might want a better source than Hislop, for reference. And I have had (and do refer to, at various times, when appropriate) The Two Babylons for more than 30 years. But one might be aware that this volume has more speculation to fill in gaps in evidence, than I would like, and do like some additional confirmation as to its claims. One might, nay should, consider doing some additional "googling" here. I'd suggest that of Ralph Woodrow, here.
Rome is the city that ruled over the kings of the Earth at the time of the writing. He refers to Rome as Babylon, a spiritual comparison. The 10 nations will destroy the religion and the city of Rome, and the antichrist will set himself to be worshipped in the city of Jerusalem for the last 3.5 years.
18
The destruction of Rome in one hour, possibly by a nuclear bomb.
Another vision:
God is praised for destroying the Roman form of Baal worship which killed many of the saints.
I'm not at all convinced that this is "Rome". I lean toward actual Babylon. And I find it a little odd, to say the least, that the historic site of Babylon, and the vestigal city of Al Hillah on the site, is considered a "holy city' by some Moslems, and I believe, suffered less damage than did Baghdad, Basra, or Najaf, among other cities. The Hussein government has plans to rebuild ancient Babylon, to its glory days; there is still the adequate water available for this, and the city is not exactly forsaken, even though "flying well under the radar", with a population approaching half a million people, making it roughly the size of Omaha or Kansas City, MO, which are not exactly Podunk City, USA.
Marriage supper of the lamb, possibly happening after the saints are raptured up at Jesus' return, maybe before armageddon maybe after it.
Jesus returns with an army of angels and the saints to take over the world by force at amageddon.
[Snipped to print!]
There is a new sky and a new Earth, no more sea.
no more sorrow, nor tears nor pain nor death for the saints.
A new Jerusalem 1500 miles square and high. Streets of gold, pearly gates bright with walls having pricious stones and full of mansions. That is where the saved saint will live, happy forever.
The testimony is ended.[/quote]I could maybe dissect each and every phrase further, and I'm absolutely certain you could do so, with what I have written. But that is and was not my intent, here but only to bring up a few key points, where we may differ a bit. Peace, :wavey:
Ed
I was going to stay out of the thread, but them decided to read it through, anyway. I'll bold some comments on this one.[quoted from antiaging]
This is a summary of my understanding of Revelation.
Summary of Revelation:
First 3 chapters are letters to the churches in Asia telling them what is wrong with them and what they need to correct.
First, the entire epistle is addressed to the seven churches(Rev. 1:4), however, Chapter 1 is not in any way addressed to any specific church, but rather is a description of what John saw. Chapters 2 & 3 are addressed specifically and individually to the seven churches, here referred to, in Asia. There were more than seven churches, in Asia, at that time, including Colossae, Derbe, Lystra, and multiple churches in the region of Galatia.
Chapter 4 starts a whole new discourse about what will happen in the future.
Jesus lived without sin and offered Himself a sacrifice for mankind so He prevailed and beat Satan, and He has the right to open the book with the 7 seals. These are the things that will happen on the last 7 years till the end of the age when Jesus returns.
1st seal:
The future evil leader, the antichrist goes forth to conquer the world militarily.
2nd seal:
The leading general of the coquering army starts the war.
3rd seal:
Food is scarce as a result of the war, there is starvation.
4th seal:
Shows that the war is over a 4th of the earth; many will die and go to hell in the war and famine caused by the war.
5th seal:
The antichrist and his servants will kill many saints. The saints will pray for God to take revenge.
6th seal:
Jesus returns, at the end of the 7 years, to take over the world by force. The evil doers are afraid and will hide themselves.
Chapter 7 a completely new vision. 144,000 Jews of Israel will become Christians before the punishments of God are poured out on the Earth.
Scripture does not ever identify these 144,000 sealed saints either as "Christians", or "the church", these two terms being reserved for believers after the resurrection and Pentecost, through the present age, which continues until the 'rapture', and prior to the seven year period, you mention.
Chapter 8: God starts to punish the people of the Earth for their sins as the 7 trumpets blow.
Seems like a meteorite shower causing fires. Seems like a big meteorite, asteroid, or a comet hits the sea and poisons the water killing many people.
Sun partially blocked possibly by large dust cloud caused by the comet or meteorite or asteroid--whatever it will be.
An army of demons is released, like locusts, that will hurt the unsaved men with great pain.-- a sting like a scorpion
Another army of either demons or men making war will cause many men to be killed by fire and smoke.
Men still don't stop sinning; so more punishments will come.
Rev. chapter 10
Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet. That is when the saints will be resurected and the living saints will rise with them to meet Jesus in the air at His return--This is spoken of by Paul; look up last trump
Jesus is going to return, surely enough, and for His saints, but I'm not sure there is any specific evidence that this occurs here, at this point in time. I'd suggest that this more likely applies at Rev. 4:1, where John hears the call of "Come up here..." which occurs "meta tauta" or "after these things" (Rev. 1:19, NASB, Darby, YLT, WYC)
chap. 11
Jerusalem is conquered by the antichrist and his followers and they will walk in Jerusalem for 42 months.
That happens 3.5 years before the end when Jesus comes back.
Two prophets of God testify against the antichrist during the 3.5 years and they speak out punishments on the people for their sins and the punishments happen to men. They will be killed shortly before the end and lie in the street 3 days. Then they will come back to life and be resurected. Then the end comes before Jesus returns.
12
Israel brings forth the Messiah Jesus. Satan was waiting to kill Him. Israel will flee into the wilderness when the antichrist takes over Jerusalem 3.5 years from the end. Satan and his devils will no longer be allowed to enter into heaven to accuse the saints falsely like they did to Job in the old testament. Satan and his devils are denied access to heaven and must stay on the earth. Satan makes war against the Jews that are saved Christians.
13
The beast from the sea; the antichrist the last evil ruler
His kingdom will be like medo persia, large, like greece cunning, he will speak with authority like the babylonian king, Satan will give the antichrist his power.
Another man will cause the world to worship the antichrist and cause a mark or a number or a name to be needed by law in order to buy and sell.
14 Brief vision of the 144,000 Jews that became christians standing on mount Sion.
Another vision:
Warnings given to the Earth that if any worship the antichrist he will be tormented forever in fire.
rev. 14:15,16 Jesus comes and raptures up the saints to meet Him in the air. rev. 14:17-20 Armageddon ---The armies of the Earth are slain in the valley of Megiddo
15 AND 16
The last punishments of God, the vials
This happens mostly during the last 3.5 years.
Sores on the men that worship the antichrist, the sea becomes like blood- either a large amount of iron oxide in the water are a reference to all on the sea dying, rivers and fountains of water become blood. --Possibly a large amount of iron oxide (rust) in the water from a large amount of iron in the sea from the asteroid that hit. (Iron oxide in the hemoglobin is what gives blood the red color)-- or blood being used figuratevely to indicate death. (Why not actual blood, here? The actual text seems to suggest this.) Men scorched with fire and heat and in pain with darkness.
Men still will not repent of their evil.
Euphrates river is dried up so that the armies from the East can come to the valley of Megiddo for armageddon to happen. Devils go out to bring the armies there. Great earthquake and great hail causing destruction. This is shortly before Jesus returns.
A new vision:
It is about a false religion, the woman or harlot. It is the babylonian mystery religion, baal worship. It rules over 7 kingdoms which oppress Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo persia, Greece, are the 5 that are fallen. Rome is the one that is. Revived Rome made of 10 nations from the european union will be the 7th. The form of Baal worship that rules in Rome now, will rule over the 7th kingdom. See the Two Bablylons by Hislop on Google.
While I do not disagree, here, I'd suggest that one might want a better source than Hislop, for reference. And I have had (and do refer to, at various times, when appropriate) The Two Babylons for more than 30 years. But one might be aware that this volume has more speculation to fill in gaps in evidence, than I would like, and do like some additional confirmation as to its claims. One might, nay should, consider doing some additional "googling" here. I'd suggest that of Ralph Woodrow, here.
Rome is the city that ruled over the kings of the Earth at the time of the writing. He refers to Rome as Babylon, a spiritual comparison. The 10 nations will destroy the religion and the city of Rome, and the antichrist will set himself to be worshipped in the city of Jerusalem for the last 3.5 years.
18
The destruction of Rome in one hour, possibly by a nuclear bomb.
Another vision:
God is praised for destroying the Roman form of Baal worship which killed many of the saints.
I'm not at all convinced that this is "Rome". I lean toward actual Babylon. And I find it a little odd, to say the least, that the historic site of Babylon, and the vestigal city of Al Hillah on the site, is considered a "holy city' by some Moslems, and I believe, suffered less damage than did Baghdad, Basra, or Najaf, among other cities. The Hussein government has plans to rebuild ancient Babylon, to its glory days; there is still the adequate water available for this, and the city is not exactly forsaken, even though "flying well under the radar", with a population approaching half a million people, making it roughly the size of Omaha or Kansas City, MO, which are not exactly Podunk City, USA.
Marriage supper of the lamb, possibly happening after the saints are raptured up at Jesus' return, maybe before armageddon maybe after it.
Jesus returns with an army of angels and the saints to take over the world by force at amageddon.
[Snipped to print!]
There is a new sky and a new Earth, no more sea.
no more sorrow, nor tears nor pain nor death for the saints.
A new Jerusalem 1500 miles square and high. Streets of gold, pearly gates bright with walls having pricious stones and full of mansions. That is where the saved saint will live, happy forever.
The testimony is ended.[/quote]I could maybe dissect each and every phrase further, and I'm absolutely certain you could do so, with what I have written. But that is and was not my intent, here but only to bring up a few key points, where we may differ a bit. Peace, :wavey:
Ed
Hello Brother BobRyan! Or am I confuting more than one BB poster, here?BobRyan said:
While there are some facets that are as you are suggesting, here, there are also some that would seem to be somewhat at variance with this, including Zech. 14, Acts 1, and Rev. 19-22, among others. Maybe this is not entirely an either/or proposition, here.
Ed
I'm not sure it is accurate to describe John Gill as the "author of the first Baptist Commentary on Scripture", but he certainly was the first (and may still be the only onel be they Baptist or of any other persuasion) individual to write and publish commentary on each and every one of the 31,102 verses in the OT and NT (KJV count) in Scripture.BobRyan said:
Matthew Henry suddenly died before completing his massive work, and some of the NT commentary was completed by others.
Ed
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
EdSutton said:Hello Brother BobRyan! Or am I confuting more than one BB poster, here?
While there are some facets that are as you are suggesting, here, there are also some that would seem to be somewhat at variance with this, including Zech. 14, Acts 1, and Rev. 19-22, among others. Maybe this is not entirely an either/or proposition, here.
Ed
Ed - there is a "Brother Bob" and a "Pastor Bob" that also post on this section of the board from time to time.
I agree with you that Zech 14 presents an interesting alternative to this scenario. one that might have fit between the first and second coming depending on the accpetance of the Messiah as illustrtated in Zech 9 in which case at the FIRST COMING of Christ - He would have "ruled from sea to shining sea".
However I see nothing but pure "agreement" with this view in Rev 19-22 and in Acts 1-2.
I'm teaching Revelation at my church on Wednesday this year, and I've found this outline by Dr. Dan B. Wallace of DTS quite helpful:
Source material.
Source material.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
It is a helpful reference for a couple of views.
On other views - his perspective is skewed. For example he accurately states the Historicist view (albeit it terse) for a change and also shows the weakness of the case made against it without actually investigating the case for it.
in Christ,
Bob
On other views - his perspective is skewed. For example he accurately states the Historicist view (albeit it terse) for a change and also shows the weakness of the case made against it without actually investigating the case for it.
in Christ,
Bob
TCGreek said:
No one really understands Revelation. There are many ideas that are backed by scripture, but contridict each other. Just give it your best shot and say, "Folks, no one really knows."
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Except for the part where God declares a blessing on those who read it and the fact that God considers it "the REVELATION" given to John not the "obfuscation given to John".
When you start with the view that makes "the most sense" it works best.
1. Take symbols that are "explained in the text" and believe the explanation the text gives.
Hint - the Bible ITSELF explains the symbol of beasts, of water, of wind, of days etc.
2. Accept the obvious points -- such as in Rev 12 where you have events listed BEFORE the birth of Christ, then the birth of Christ, then persecution of saints AFTER the resurrection of Christ. I.e. the Historicist view.
3. Accept the 7 churches would be reading Rev 2 and 3 in John's day and that the problems listed there "were real".
when you go with "the obvious" a whole new world opens up.
in Christ,
Bob
When you start with the view that makes "the most sense" it works best.
1. Take symbols that are "explained in the text" and believe the explanation the text gives.
Hint - the Bible ITSELF explains the symbol of beasts, of water, of wind, of days etc.
2. Accept the obvious points -- such as in Rev 12 where you have events listed BEFORE the birth of Christ, then the birth of Christ, then persecution of saints AFTER the resurrection of Christ. I.e. the Historicist view.
3. Accept the 7 churches would be reading Rev 2 and 3 in John's day and that the problems listed there "were real".
when you go with "the obvious" a whole new world opens up.
in Christ,
Bob
Is Rv11:1-6 in fulfilment in our own day, through all the 'Versions' and 'Translations' that flood the publishing houses?
Crabtownboy said:
GE
Yes. But when Christ is the answer to the questions, everybody can and must understand Revelation.
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
GE
If I'm right, then we definitely find ourselves in the last of days, just before the Seventh Trumpet of the Last Day.
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Jesus does not come to earth when he returns.
"I GO to prepare a PLACE for you and If I GO I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you to Myself" John 14.
"Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the air to MEET the Lord" 1Thess 4
Quite simply - when Jesus returns - He takes the saints to heaven.
But first he causes the saints (those who are asleep) to "come to life" in the "FIRST RESURRECTION" of Rev 20:4-5.
The event that takes place at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19 in detail.
GE
"Jesus does not come to earth when he returns."
A bigger LIE has never been proclaimed with greater bravado. Whereto does He return when He returns to this earth to raise the saved?
Yes, I know, He throws out screaching brakes just before he collides with mother earth. Blasphemous thought!
When Christ shall return it will be the day the New Jerusalem shall descend out of heaven onto the earth, and the dead shall be raised, the godly to the resurrection of Life; the ungodly to the resurrection of damnation. That day shall be both the end of the end, and the beginning of the New Earth and New Heavens.
It's the same heresies over and over from you and the SDA Church; it's sickening!
Jesus does not come to earth when he returns.
"I GO to prepare a PLACE for you and If I GO I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you to Myself" John 14.
"Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the air to MEET the Lord" 1Thess 4
Quite simply - when Jesus returns - He takes the saints to heaven.
But first he causes the saints (those who are asleep) to "come to life" in the "FIRST RESURRECTION" of Rev 20:4-5.
The event that takes place at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19 in detail.
GE
"Jesus does not come to earth when he returns."
A bigger LIE has never been proclaimed with greater bravado. Whereto does He return when He returns to this earth to raise the saved?
Yes, I know, He throws out screaching brakes just before he collides with mother earth. Blasphemous thought!
When Christ shall return it will be the day the New Jerusalem shall descend out of heaven onto the earth, and the dead shall be raised, the godly to the resurrection of Life; the ungodly to the resurrection of damnation. That day shall be both the end of the end, and the beginning of the New Earth and New Heavens.
It's the same heresies over and over from you and the SDA Church; it's sickening!
Another direct contradiction of God's Word: "But first he causes the saints (those who are asleep) to "come to life" in the "FIRST RESURRECTION" of Rev 20:4-5."
The Word reads, that "They lived and reigned with Christ"; you say they were dead. Shameless!
The Word reads, that "They lived and reigned with Christ"; you say they were dead. Shameless!