Understanding Revelation

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Another contradiction in itself:

"the "FIRST RESURRECTION" of Rev 20:4-5.

The event that takes place at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19 in detail."

The event that takes place in Rv20:4-5 - and 1-6 for that matter - is what takes place therein, and not what takes place in Revelation 19 - or some part of it obviously - which you do not specify in fear of being exposed the fraud you are.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the air to MEET the Lord" 1Thess 4

Quite simply - when Jesus returns - He takes the saints to heaven."

GE
Quite simply, another far too self-confident arrogance.
"Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them" -- who are 'them'? The dead saints having been raised. All the saved are 'seiced together' in clouds upon the face of the earth - clouds apparently from the dust of the graves opened by the heat of His appearance an arid situation. And it is the Lord who while "in the air" is being met by the saints all together and at once. It is the Lord who descends from heaven upon the earth, no the saints who rise up in the air to Him. Quite simply - when Jesus returns - He come to stay with the saved. He shall 'tabernacle' with them and be their temple and sun, and will sit on His throne in the New Jerusalem - literally, upon a literal New Earth. And thus we shall always be where the Lord for always will be.

 

[skypair]

So we're back to where we began. Until I'm convinced from Scripture that the 7 churches of the Apocalypse are actually 7 church-periods, I cannot accept the present computations.

Let's say they WEREN'T 7 periods of church history but DID describe 7 types of churches (good points and bad points). Do you think you could distinguish those and avoid the wrong ones? Do you think seeing good and bad points in the combinations give would reveal to you certain denominations? Or do you think it is all about 7 churches at the time of John's writing and all arcane to us?

skypair

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

May I pose a question which to me is an interesting one - I won't know about you --

Just suppose the 7 churches or 7 letters symbolise the Church General through 7 phases from the institution of the Church until some time before the Advent. The what happens with this 'last Church', Laodecea? God spews it out, we are last informed. The Letter ends with an admonition to repent and reform; but it is left open that it ever did. So in the very end of time, don't we have a Church left?

I am inclined to think that way! I want to understand Jesus' Promise as a Prophecy: "Where two or three gather in my Name, there I am / will be." The Chrurch of the last days before the coming of Christ no longer will exist in the nominal or accepted Church denominations or organisations whatsoever: God will have spewed them out!

From there it's easy to take 'Babilon' for the Church General, which "is Fallen, is Fallen!" And the Word comes: "Get thee out of it!" Not a flattering view.

 

[TCGreek]

Let's say they WEREN'T 7 periods of church history but DID describe 7 types of churches (good points and bad points). Do you think you could distinguish those and avoid the wrong ones? Do you think seeing good and bad points in the combinations give would reveal to you certain denominations? Or do you think it is all about 7 churches at the time of John's writing and all arcane to us?

skypair

Yes, 7 types of churches that can fit any time and locale in church history. I agree with this.

 

[TCGreek]

No one really understands Revelation. There are many ideas that are backed by scripture, but contridict each other. Just give it your best shot and say, "Folks, no one really knows."

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in taking that "doom and gloom" approach to an understanding of Revelation.

I was of that approach once, but once you are able to identify certain key elements within the Apocalypse, an understanding of the book is quite possible.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


5. Revelation 20:4

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

(did anybody bother to read my discussion in
#1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?

*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives

them a new body

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

 

[BobRyan]

Another contradiction in itself:

"the "FIRST RESURRECTION" of Rev 20:4-5.

The event that takes place at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19 in detail."

The event that takes place in Rv20:4-5 - and 1-6 for that matter - is what takes place therein, and not what takes place in Revelation 19 - or some part of it obviously - which you do not specify in fear of being exposed the fraud you are.

Wrong.

In Rev 19 we have the 2nd coming.

John "added no chapter markers in the text"

Rev 20 is simply the conclusion of the Rev 19 scenario of the 2nd coming.

Obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"Rev 20 is simply the conclusion of the Rev 19 scenario of the 2nd coming."

GE
Goes the song, I feel like crying! Please, "...the Rev 19 scenario of the 2nd coming"? The Rev 19 scenario of the coming of Christ ONCE FOR ALL!​

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

and please note in 19 from verse 1 to verse 16 how the Gospel era is described, the very parallel of "Thousand years this the First Resurrection" 20:1-5/6 (quoted literally)!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


5. Revelation 20:4

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

(did anybody bother to read my discussion in
#1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?

*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives

them a new body

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

GE
I reply by quoting you, fully, because no better argument to the demolishment of your view can be offered than itself -- it's so muddled.

 

[BobRyan]

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

God is "just and true"
Christ is "Lord and Savior"


Artificially inserting gaps into scripture whenever you find an "and" does not work.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said

No chapter breaks in Revelation -- greek text:​

"Rev 20 is simply the conclusion of the Rev 19 scenario of the 2nd coming."

​

GE​

Goes the song, I feel like crying!​

Insightful and to the point -- "as usual".

in Christ,

Bob

​

 

[antiaging]

[Sigh!] After no one took me up on my generous offer to explain Revelation, I was going to stay out of the thread, but them decided to read it through, anyway. I'll bold some comments on this one.

I could maybe dissect each and every phrase further, and I'm absolutely certain you could do so, with what I have written. But that is and was not my intent, here but only to bring up a few key points, where we may differ a bit. Peace, :wavey:

Ed

The 144000 are identified as servants of God. That means they must be Christians since this is the New Covenant era.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Jesus returns for the saints at the last trumpet.

Why not the sea turning to actual blood?
Actual blood has living blood cells, white blood cells, antibodies, antigens, etc.
If the sea really became blood it would be a great scientific mystery. Blood cells are generated by bone marrow.
I saw on TV that sea water has almost the same chemical composition as blood plasma, maybe a little more salt in it. If you add to that, rust, (iron oxide) you would get a chemical composition very close to blood. Iron in the hemoglobin turns red when given oxygen from the lungs and that is iron oxide or rust. Rusty water tastes similar to blood.
I know that God works miracles, and He can make the sea actual blood with all the carpuscles and antibodies etc. It could be actual blood, but I am favoring the idea of rust entering the sea.

Rome is the city that ruled over the kings of the Earth at the time of the writing. He refers to Rome as Babylon, a spiritual comparison.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Reigneth is middle english present tense to the time of the writing. Rome ruled over the kings at the time of the wirting. The name on the woman's forehead is mystery, bablylon the great. The woman is the city called bablylon and it reigned over the kings of the Earth at the time He wrote revelation. So babylon must be Rome.

 

[BobRyan]

The 144,000 are alive at the end of time as we see in Rev 7 and in Rev 14.

They are by definition "Christians" -- i.e. followers of God.

As 1Cor 10:1-5 points out EVEN the OT saints are regarded as having drunk from the SAME spiritual rock -- that is CHRIST!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Insightful and to the point -- "as usual".​

in Christ,​

Bob​

GE
It's not the type of challenge I like to put forward, but you force me to: Present ONE 'scrap' (as someone has said) of Scripture with these words: "Second resurrection". And I confidently shall extend it to, Present ONE 'scrap' of Scripture of the idea of a 'Second resurrection'.

BobRyan, I cannot remember how often I have invited you to give account of YOUR parsing of 1Thes4:16-17. It is grade 7 stuff. Please may we see yours?