Unfinished Business

[282Mikado]

I know you never said anyone committed gluttonly. I implied that. Well fed is referring to the crowd IN WHOLE not each person individually. I doubt not ONE person ate too much.

Where does Scripture condemn lighteheadedness and "tipsy-ness"? I thought it condemned drunkeness...

I can drink 8 -10 beers fairly easily and not be drunk.

Take a breathalizer after 8-10 beers and then tell the police your not drunk. You must be proud of yourself! There aren't too many Christians that can brag like you about heavy drinking.

As for verses, those two (lightheaded and tipsy) are my words, but I can find plenty that condemn wine period:

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Proverbs 20:1

He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich. Proverbs 21:17

Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Proverbs 23:29-33

Not that I think they'll do any good. Having read your comments in various other threads I don't think there is a vice you can't talk yourself into or justify.

 

[webdog]

Take a breathalizer after 8-10 beers and then tell the police your not drunk. You must be proud of yourself! There aren't too many Christians that can brag like you about heavy drinking.

As for verses, those two (lightheaded and tipsy) are my words, but I can find plenty that condemn wine period:

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Proverbs 20:1

He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich. Proverbs 21:17

Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Proverbs 23:29-33

Not that I think they'll do any good. Having read your comments in various other threads I don't think there is a vice you can't talk yourself into or justify.

first, their really is no need for ad hominems. Deal with the discussion.

Second, I'm not a "heavy drinker", so do not state this fallacy. I said I "can", not that I do.

Third, if you think those verses "condemn wine"...you have eisegeted that into the text, as the text does NOT state that.

 

[Linda64]

I can drink 8 -10 beers fairly easily and not be drunk.

My late husband could do that and more....he had to drink at least a half case before he felt the effects of the beer. It's called "tolerance"...he needed more and more to reach the point of feeling drunk. He went through 2 cases of beer in 3 days.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[282Mikado]

first, their really is no need for ad hominems. Deal with the discussion.

Second, I'm not a "heavy drinker", so do not state this fallacy. I said I "can", not that I do.

Third, if you think those verses "condemn wine"...you have eisegeted that into the text, as the text does NOT state that.

1. You said you could drink 8-10 and not feel the effects. How would you know unless you have done it?

2. Regardless, drink 8-10 and find out your blood alcohol content. Linda's comment on increased tolerance is also very good

3.

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Proverbs 20:1

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Proverbs 23:31-32.

What do these verses say if they are not condemning wine?

 

[webdog]

1. You said you could drink 8-10 and not feel the effects. How would you know unless you have done it?

I haven't said I haven't done it. It's been years since I had that many in one day. I'm a fairly large man, and it does not have that much affect on me.

2. Regardless, drink 8-10 and find out your blood alcohol content.

It all depends on how long they are consumed for. I agree 8 beers in one hour would lead to drunkeness. 8 in 8 hours (or 4 for that matter) would not.

What do these verses say if they are not condemning wine?

One word: abuse.

 

[282Mikado]

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Proverbs 23:31-32.

"Look not upon". That is not abuse, that is use. We are not even to look upon it.

Maybe that is why bars are always dark...so you can't see what your drinking. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Proverbs 23:31-32.

"Look not upon". That is not abuse, that is use. We are not even to look upon it.

Maybe that is why bars are always dark...so you can't see what your drinking. :laugh:

....so in the context you have just created, looking at white wine is perfectly acceptable, as is whiskey, beer, rum....

Why is it a sin to "look not upon"? What does that really mean besides gazing at it, desiring it? That is addiction...abuse, which is sin, not the act of seeing red wine. Driving by and seeing a beer billboard would be sin according to you. That sounds awfully pharasaical to me.

 

[Linda64]

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Proverbs 23:31-32.

"Look not upon". That is not abuse, that is use. We are not even to look upon it.

Maybe that is why bars are always dark...so you can't see what your drinking. :laugh:

You got a point there. :thumbs:

 

[Sopranette]

One glass of wine has the same effect on me as swimming under water for a minute. A six pack of beer will definitely get me plastered, but then I'm kind of petite.
Sadly, I know people who started with a couple of beers a night, then a six pack every night, then drinking beer continuously when they lost their job. That person is dead now, believing beer was a "safe" drink.
I can't drink because of my blood sugar problems. But even so, witnessing people go downhill slowly over alcohol is enough to stop me from drinking. Alcohol kills my singing ability, too. Period.
And a hangover HURTS!

love,

Sopranette

 

[standingfirminChrist]

"Look not thou" has more than one meaning in the Hebrew.

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
7200. ra'ah
Search for H7200 in KJVSL
har ra'ah raw-aw'
a primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):--advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.

Just gazing at alcohol is not necessarily sin. Look thou not in the passage in question has to mean more than gaze. We see alcohol advertisments every day. Does that mean we sin because we see such billboards on the highways and byways we travel on a daily basis? Of course not!

No, Solomon was saying don't even experience it...
don't consider it
don't approve of it,
don't provide it for another.

A clear warning in the Word of God.

 

[282Mikado]

That sounds awfully pharasaical to me.

What did you say about ad hominems?

You do have a way of twisting words Webdog, I'll give you that.

 

[webdog]

"Look not thou" has more than one meaning in the Hebrew.



Just gazing at alcohol is not necessarily sin. Look thou not in the passage in question has to mean more than gaze. We see alcohol advertisments every day. Does that mean we sin because we see such billboards on the highways and byways we travel on a daily basis? Of course not!

No, Solomon was saying don't even experience it...
don't consider it
don't approve of it,
don't provide it for another.

A clear warning in the Word of God.

It is defined by context. It is more aligned to that of looking on a woman with lust. The gaze is a lustful gaze, that of desire, not considering, approving or providing it.

 

[webdog]

What did you say about ad hominems?

You do have a way of twisting words Webdog, I'll give you that.

Saying something sounds pharasaical is stating it sounds like the extra biblical "laws" we are to uphold. That is NOT an ad hominem, as I did NOT call you a pharisee. You have a hard time with this debating thing, huh?

 

[282Mikado]

Saying something sounds pharasaical is stating it sounds like the extra biblical "laws" we are to uphold. That is NOT an ad hominem, as I did NOT call you a pharisee. You have a hard time with this debating thing, huh?

Only when debating people that twist scripture any which way to serve their fleshly desires. If anyone should be held criticized for misspoken words it would be the person you see in the mirror.

 

[282Mikado]

First let me apologize for my anger yesterday. That is probably my biggest thorn in the flesh and I am sorry I let it get the best of me. It is not justified, and my following comments in no way are an attempt to justify it.

In this thread I feel like I've been listening to Bill Clinton as he said under oath, "It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is."

To compare the miracle at Cana with the miracle of the loaves and fishes is "in my mind" a real stretch. When the people were "well fed" the meal was over; leftovers gathered; no one was encouraged to eat more or be gluttonous. When the people were "well drunk" Jesus made a significant amount more of wine that was even better than the first so they could drink more. If this is alcoholic wine, most people (Webdog excepted) would probably be moderately inebriated when said to be "well drunk". (I believe I would be as well as most of the people I knew in my driking days.) To make more alcoholic wine that is even better than the first seems to be condoning and perpetuating drunkeness IF the wine is alcoholic.

No one knows prior to taking there first drink what their tolerance may be or if they are prone to alcoholism. My grandfather was a moderate drinker. I never saw him drunk. Yet he had several sons that became alcoholics. I pray that none of you moderate drinkers ever have to go through that as a parent. There were many arguments and bad scenes in those days,and many lives deeply hurt. Grandpa did not intend for that to happen, but he could not control his childrens appetites as he could his own.

I have been through many threads here (I read here more than I right) and see many of this moderate drinking crowd also saying that an occasional smoke is okay, a football pool or lottery ticket is no big deal, mid-thigh dresses and low cut v-necks are modest dress by today's standards.

Questions:

If I see you hootin' and hollerin' at a football game with a cigarette in the mouth, beer in the hand, next to your wife who is dressed and smelling ready for the red light district, checking the paper for the latest lotto numbers and bee-bopping to the latest "Christian" Rap song... How am I, or anyone else going to be able to tell that you are a Christian separate from the world?

What could this testimony do to a weaker brother? To the unsaved?
What if your example leads another brother to try drinking that can not control it?

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 2 Cor 6:16-17

Finally, I have a brother-in-law currently in jail for crimes perpetrated to support his crack habit. (There was a time when he said, It's only a little marijuana, I can handle it.) He has told me of men in jail who spend all their free time going through the legal books from the library to find some loophole so that they can beat the system and be freed. Did they do the crime? Yes. Are they repentant? No. They keep looking because they hope to find that one loophole that may condone their actions.

Sounds familiar.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Good post, 282Mikado! I echo your thoughts.

 

[readmore]

How am I, or anyone else going to be able to tell that you are a Christian separate from the world?

You do have a rigorous set of standards to judge others' Christianity by, don't you? Just remember that although God's word is infallible, your interpretation is not guaranteed the same infallibility. It's OK for other Christians to interpret such things differently, and it doesn't make them unsaved or less of a Christian.

What could this testimony do to a weaker brother? To the unsaved?
What if your example leads another brother to try drinking that can not control it?

You do have a point. It is a principal taught in the New Testament that Christians should not do things that would cause other Christians to violate their conscience and partake in something that they believe is wrong.

 

[saturneptune]

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red

Does that mean you prefer white wine?

Just wanted you to note, this fellow is not looking upon his drink, therefore, he is not sinning. Your concept of New Testement Christian living is odd indeed.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It is not Mikado's standards, it is commanded of the word of God.

Wherefore come out from amongst them and be ye separate; and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you saith the Lord.

Not our word, but His Word.

 

[readmore]

It is not Mikado's standards, it is commanded of the word of God.

The canonicity of the book of 1 Mikado hasn't been established yet. You know, the one that has

• Thou shalt not bee-bop to the latest "Christian" music.
• Thou shalt not check the papers for the latest lottery numbers.
• Thy wife shall not smell as the ladies in the red light district smell.
• Thou shalt not participate in football pools, neither in any pools pertaining to sports.
• Thou shalt not smoke.

Mikado, I'm sure there are many more where those came from. Why not lay them all out on the table?