Unlimited Atonement

[Historic Baptist]

First of all, it is common sense if someone cannot come they will not come. Just because the word "will" appears in John 5:40 does not indicate human will in salvation. Read this in simple English: "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." [Romans 8:7]. It does not say "neither indeed will be" but "neither indeed can be." Or perhaps you might like to read this in simple English: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." [1 Corinthians 2:14].

Second of all, you are taking specific language and interpreting it in light of general language. You should be taking general language in light of specific language. For example, when the Bible says that Jesus gave Himself a ransom for many, and in another place it says that Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all, it must mean all of the many that He gave Himself for. That is the only correct way to interpret it.

Finally, you seem to talk about church truths that have been "rediscovered" or some nonsense. Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, and that would include the doctrines as well. Also, you must not use "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" to support your views. While this verse is true, not all are going to call upon the name of the Lord. Why not? Because not all are called [1 Corinthians 1:26].

 

[Historic Baptist]

What do you think election of grace is? [Romans 11:5]

 

[Ray Berrian]

The Scripture of the week. John 1:7 'The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through Him might be saved.'

You would not be wrong to include women, little children and the non-elect.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Historic Baptist]

I don't think I asked you anything dealing with that verse. If you cannot defend what you believe against my verses and answer my questions, don't think for a minute I'll defend my Biblical answer against your's.

 

[tyndale1946]

You bring up the topic of Unlimited Atonement and there isn't anything Unlimited about it. To say this is to say that Salvation is for everybody and to say that is to call God a liar. Salvation is not for everybody but for the elect only. If there is not an election then what is the word doing in the Bible? To elect someone you separate them from the rest that you did not elect. Then someone says yes there is an election and then they attach a condition on the election. So here we have God making an election of his children on a condition he saw in them. The Limited Atonement I see is that I was accepted in Christ Jesus because I was dead and unable to accept him. That is the only Atonement the scriptures talk about and it is Limited to sheep only!... Brother Glen

 

[Frank]

Larry:
ALL means ALL. It means for all people. The texts posted mean those under the New Covenant and those who lived before it. Larry, be careful to make sure you understand the meaning of both the context and what the passages say.

Frank

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Frank:
Larry:
ALL means ALL. It means for all people. The texts posted mean those under the New Covenant and those who lived before it. Larry, be careful to make sure you understand the meaning of both the context and what the passages say.

Frank

Perhaps I wasn't clear Frank. I asked you to quote the relevant part of the verses that demonstrate your conclusion. I am familiar with the world all but perhaps seeing what was said would help. Christ died "eph-hapax" the Greek word meaning "once for all time, at one time." Therefore this "all" clearly refers to time, not people. The second "all" in English (10:12) is teh word "dienekes" meaning "continuous or for all time." This once again refers to time, not people. Heb 9:15-17 that you cited does not even address this issue except to say that the blessing of eternal life are reserved for those who have been called.

Therefore, the challenge stands: What in these verses leads you to your conclusion?

 

[Historic Baptist]

I still want to know where the Bible gives instructions on how to be born again

Jesus justified those He died for and purged their sins.

[Rom. 8:33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

[Heb. 1:3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Obviously Christ did not justify or purge the sins of every man who has ever walked on the earth. If He died for every man who has ever walked on the earth, then He must have also died for those who were already in hell when He died. Why then, did they not have a chance to be saved? If one who believes in an unlimited atonement [so-called] rejects the idea that Christ died for those souls who were in hell at the time of His death, that person believes in a limited or particular redemption.

Therefore, the atonement must have been for a particular people; the all of the many sons for whom He died [Heb. 2:10]. You may teach unlimited atonement but be consistent and also teach universal salvation.

 

[Ray Berrian]

God is not sitting around looking at any good in us before our conversion. He knows we are utterly lost. That is why He went to the Cross so that sinners have the opportunity to believe in His saving grace. No excuses at the Great White Throne Judgment because He made possible the salvation of all of His human creatures.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Historic Baptist:
I still want to know where the Bible gives instructions on how to be born again

No one can be instructed on how to be born again, anymore than an infant can crawl back into the womb and rebirth himself. Nicodemus understood this very well when he said "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" (John 3:4). Nicodemus knew it was a volitional impossibilty. A man is born again from above (not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God, Jn 1:13) and only then can he see the kingdom of God.

A man is born of God (regenerated) and then he is freed to turn to God in faith, when he is irresistibly drawn by the Spirit.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Historic Baptist,

The people from Adam until this very day had their opportunities to believe in Almighty God. If not then you should expunge from the Word of God Genesis 6:2.

Abel was quite near the beginning of human creation and he is listed among the saints who God claims as His people. And don't forget the buffeted Esau who is noted among the heroes of the former covenant of faith. [Hebrews 11:4 & 20]

Dr. Berrian

 

[Ray Berrian]

Sinners do not call on Christ because they have wicked hearts that are in rebellion against Him. They do not respond to His call because they have autonomy over their own will and at the judgment will find nothing but eternal condemnation.

People who are, according to some, coherced into bowing to Christ cannot after that truly worship because He forced them to comply in becoming elect. This just stated statement is, of course, a misnomer. He does not ramrod any sinner into yielding to Him.

True conversion and worship happens when the sinner sees his need and submits himself having been under the convicting power of the second Person of the Trinity. When this happens--true worship follows.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
People who are, according to some, coherced into bowing to Christ cannot after that truly worship because He forced them to comply in becoming elect. This just stated statement is, of course, a misnomer.

Not only that -- it is misrepresentative. You continue, for some inexplicable reason, to suggest that election and grace is coercion. It is not. You should know better. I can grant that perhaps before you started frequented this board you simply had not been shown how this works. However, now you are without excuse. You know better.

Other than that, your post contains a number of truths that we all agree with. The problem is that you cannot biblically reconcile those statements with your system.

In addition, you continue, despite constant corrections to say something about Esau that is completely contrary to Scripture. While I am tempted to let it go, I hesitate because of those who may not have seen our previous discussion. I do not want such teaching to go on uncorrected. Ray, you should know better by now.

[ April 12, 2002, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

This will conclude my view about Esau. Merrill C. Tenney also concurs with me that Esau was a former covenant believer. Zondervan Pictoral Bible Dictionary p. 398 under [Jacob]

Respectfully,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Frank]

Larry:
The sacrifice once and for all was for all sin of mankind. Sin being the trangression of law. ( I Jn. 3:4). In I Jn. 2:2, the Bible says" And He is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OUR SINS ONLY, BUT FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." Simple implication is that Hebrews 10:10 and Hebnrews 9:15-17 is for the sins of all mankind. This is harmonious with I Jn. 2:2. These verses simply teach us those under the first testament are covered by the blood as those are under the new covenant as well as ALL MEN. By the way, the context of these passages does indeed mean all men as sin is under consideration. The epistle was written to men ABOUT SIN. It was not written about sin to sin. ( Hebrews 9:15-17;10:10, I Jn. 2:2).
Furthermore, the chapter contrast the numerous sacrifices of the old law that could not take away sin but brought a remembrance, The sacrifice of Christ took away sin once for all men. The context of chapters 9 and 10 so teach. I hope this helps .

Frank

 

[Historic Baptist]

The people from Adam until this very day had their opportunities to believe in Almighty God. If not then you should expunge from the Word of God Genesis 6:2. --Ray Berrian

[Gen. 6:2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

I fail to see your connection between Genesis 6:2 and all people having an opportunity to believe in Almighty God. You seem to have strong "convictions" about your Arminian gospel, but you are not responding to any of my statements. Did I, in some way, make my last post unclear? I simply asked if Jesus died for the sins of those tormented souls who were already in hell; yes or no?

[Matt. 20:28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

What does the Bible mean when it states, "many?" I hardly think it means "all." According to your false gospel Jesus did not save or justify any man on Calvary. That is absolutely contrary to Bible doctrine!

[Is. 53:11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

God was satisfied when He saw the trevail of Jesus' soul. Why? Because He knew some of those for whom His Son was dying would ultimately end up in hell? No! Because all of those for whom His Son was dying would be holy and without blame before Him in love, and heaven would be their eternal abode.

Every man has had an opportunity to believe in Almighty God?

[John 12:38] That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? [39] Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, [40] He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Frank:
I hope this helps .

Frank

No it doesn't because you still did not deal with the text of Scripture. You made "all" refer to something the author of Hebrews did not make it refer to. That is called distorting or twisting Scripture and it results in destruction (2 Peter 3). My encouragement to you is to give further thought to the implications of the texts that you are discussing. That will help.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
This will conclude my view about Esau. Merrill C. Tenney also concurs with me that Esau was a former covenant believer. Zondervan Pictoral Bible Dictionary p. 398 under [Jacob]

Respectfully,

Dr. Berrian

Once again, Paul disagrees with you and with Tenney, if that is indeed what he said. On these issues we go with Paul when he said that godless and immoral people will not inherit the kingdom of God. As I have said many times, our theology must be subjected to Scripture.

 

[Eric B]

Jesus never told anyone how to be born again. Actually, Jesus told Nicodemus to "marvel not." Why? Because, "The wind blows where it listeth [wishes]." The Holy Ghost of God overshadows one of His dear elect children and plants within them an incorruptible seed. As a result, the convicted child of God will come to Him in repentance and faith. No one asks to be born again; what foolishness. It is not until one is born again that they have any desire for spiritual things.

Jesus was explaining to a leader of the Jews --who had thought salvation was in keeping the Law, that new birth was how one was transformed, and this leading to the proclamation "Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life". This is where He tells how to be born again. And this is of the will of God opposed to the will of man or the flesh (if I keep the Law, or if my first birth (the flesh) made me a child of Abraham I will achieve it). You can argue that only the those regenerated first can believe, but this is not necessary in the passage. Why else would Jesus be explaing this? And the correlation between the first and second births (if you had no choice in one you have no choice in the other) has no scriptural warrant.

Obviously Christ did not justify or purge the sins of every man who has ever walked on the earth. If He died for every man who has ever walked on the earth, then He must have also died for those who were already in hell when He died. Why then, did they not have a chance to be saved? If one who believes in an unlimited atonement [so-called] rejects the idea that Christ died for those souls who were in hell at the time of His death, that person believes in a limited or particular redemption.
Therefore, the atonement must have been for a particular people; the all of the many sons for whom He died [Heb. 2:10].

This is a gross non-sequitur. The pre-atonement age was very different, as it looked forward to Christ (and Christ's atonment reached back to it).
When we speak of the atonmement being unlimited, we speak of this era, after it had occurred.
And you can't just take the fact that perhaps the atonement didn't cover those who had died already (and therefore wasn't "unlimited" as to every man who ever walked the Earth) and jump to "particular people", because that doesn't rule out "all men" after Christ.

 

[Ray Berrian]

HistoricBaptist,

Christ died for every person who ever was born of a woman. Every person . . . People already in Hell are their because they neglected to believe in Him. Our Lord said, 'It is finished.' By this He meant that His perfect salvation was complete. He could do no more for we human beings. On top of this, He is active by the Spirit to convict and draw sinners to Himself. I will agree with you that because of the Adamic nature in a person, there is a most powerful proclivity to rebel against Almighty God and His open promise offered through the Gospel.

When Jesus says that He came to die for 'many' He is indicating that He has always known, from the distant eternity past, that only the remnant will finally be saved and not the majority of humankind.

Not to be contrary with you, but many other passages clearly indicate that He died for every soul who will have ever lived. The Apostle John while on the isle of Patmos said, that Jesus made a propitiation for our sins; (the falterings of Christians) ' . . . and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' (the remaining sinners during all of time) The ' . . . sins of the whole world' are not immaterial or invisible people that you and I cannot see. These people are the lost of His human creation.

Dr. Berrian

Dr. Berrian