Unlimited Atonement

[Historic Baptist]

prognosis - forethought, pre-arrangement

That is the New Testament Greek definition of foreknowledge.

You remind me of the people Paul was addressing in his epistle to the Romans.

[Romans 9:14] What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. [15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...[19]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I am afraid your problem is not with me but with a sovereign God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So Ray, what does "foreknowledge" mean in Rom 11:2: God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Romans chapter nine is not in conflict with the 'foreknowledge' passages.

Calvinists have been taught so long that Romans nine is about God electing many to Hell and the remnant, that they believe it.

Romans nine deals with God selecting/electing Jacob to be the lineage through which Jesus was born. Esau did not have this priviledge. Why? Because God chose to wield His will in this matter. He does have the sovereign right to do these things.

In verse 17 God is not electing Pharaoh to Hell, He is using him as a pagan leader to portray His greater authority over him. Almighty God finally broke Pharaoh through the various plagues and finally the Israelites were released to go toward the Promised Land. Thus we have the words, ' . . . for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My Name might be declared throughout all the earth.'

Even if He were electing Esau and Pharaoh to Hell, He is not saying that He is going to use this similar formula on the rest of His created beings that we call humans.

It is preposterous and blasphemous to say that God elects people to Hell, for whatever reason people suggest. On the other hand, ' . . . God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world, through Him, might be saved. [John 3:17]

Dr. Berrian

 

[Ray Berrian]

With reference to Romans 11:1 & 2, God knows all Israelties who are saved or will at some time in the future be saved.

But, I also believe that the Apostle Paul is saying that although the Israelites are now blinded [Rom. 11:7] that in the future, in the Millinimum, the Israelites will be restored and will find their true fulfillment in Christ. Thus we read, ' . . . God is able to graff them in AGAIN. . . . and how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree.' This 'partial blindness' [Rom. 11:25] will end when the rapture takes place and then the Israelite nation will be grafted into Christ once again. During the Great Tribulation many, many Israelites will again be deceived by the Antichrist, who will claim that He is the Messiah. By this I mean that during the Great Tribulation (yet future) and especially during the Millinimum ( yet future) they will again, begin to find their way back to Him. This is why the apostle says, 'And so all Israel will be saved.' [Romans 11:26]

Sincerely,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Historic Baptist]

Ray,

Election does not pertain to lost people. God's election pertains only to His people. All others are left in their sins. Therefore, God does not elect anyone to go to hell. Election pertains to salvation.

[Matt. 24:31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Rom. 8:33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

[Rom. 11:5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

[Col. 3:12] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

[I Thess. 1:4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

[I Pet. 1:2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

What is the purpose of election?

[Rom. 9:11] (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

nGod's purpose according to election is not of works but of him that calleth; before anyone has a chance to do good or evil. That is election. Election never pertains to anything but salvation and is never dependent upon the choice of man but only upon the decision of God.

 

[KJV1611only]

Your posts have been edited for the manner in which they were written. If you have something to add to this conversation, do it a manner consistent with being born again. Leave the inflammatory language and derogatory condescending approach at the door.

Your posts will not be edited for their theology. They will be for their manner. In the future, do better and save me the trouble of having to edit you.

Moderator.

[ April 18, 2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
With reference to Romans 11:1 & 2, God knows all Israelties who are saved or will at some time in the future be saved.

But, I also believe that the Apostle Paul is saying that although the Israelites are now blinded [Rom. 11:7] that in the future, in the Millinimum, the Israelites will be restored and will find their true fulfillment in Christ.

This is what I thought your answer would be. But notice how it fails to deal with the text. God did not simply "foreknow" his people in the sense that you would argue. He did not choose them in the OT because they were great or more in number but because he loved them. That is the foreknowledge that Paul is talking about here. God has not rejected his people because he foreknew them ... he chose them. They are not eternally cast off and one day they will be brought back because of his foreknowledge ... his choice of them. This verse shows that foreknowledge does not mean what you need it to mean. The idea of knowledge builds on the OT idea of choice or yada' in the Hebrew. It is not simply prescience.

 

[KJV1611only]

Larry....you said about foreknowledge that It is not simply prescience. I disagree with you and your definiton. look up the word Foreknowlegde in any English dictionary and it will say

Knowledge of a thing before it happens; prescience

I don't need the Greek or Hebrew because i have an English Bible and and English dictionary.

Anyway..Foreknowledge doesn't mean anyone was predestined..neither does predestined mean anyone was chosen before the world began in Christ. you can't be in Christ when Christ had no body to be in..Unless you want to teach the Body of Christ started before the world began and in that case I would like to see that scripture.

Limited Attonment only limits the power of God. The Bible teaches no such animal.

Think about this. The Bible says WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

no place where salvation is taught does it say anything about anyone already being elect or saying salvation is for the elect only. not one single place in your Bible.

want to see an unregenerated man seeking after salvation? Acts 16:30 the jailer was a Gentile..he asks "what must I do to be saved? I guess he didn't know the Holy spirit had to regenerate him first before he could seek. And Look what Paul tells him BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Not wait for the holy spirit to make you able to believe and then believe but Believe. just like it says in Romans 10:9 freewill and choice right there.

Calvinist believe that none of the elect will be lost right? so then tell me who is being spoken about in 2peter2:1? when it says "But there were false prophets among the people even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies even denying the Lord that BOUGHT them..."

Who are these people being talked about here? are they God's elect? You teach that Jesus only shed his Blood for the Elect yet it says here that he Bought..paid a price for.. people who deny him.

 

[Ray Berrian]

HistoricBaptist,

My defintion of foreknowledge was directly from Dr. James Strong. I have an idea that your defintion added a flair from the HistoricBaptist. Let the experts explain it to us.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Ray Berrian]

HistoricBaptist,

The elect are taken out of the world system to become the sons and daughters of God. Everyone knows that the elect refers only to the people of God.

Your first paragraph was precious. It is sad how you have made yourself believe that God elects His chosen few and then because they were sinners anyway, He is absolved from responsibility for sending the majority to Hell.
If He calls some out to be His own, He has by default decreed the majority to the forbidden pit. The non-elect didn't ask God for the priviledge of going to Hell. You can't have it both ways. Be consistent. If you are going to be a Calvinist why not be a 'double predestinarian?'

Dr. Berrian

 

[Ray Berrian]

KJV1611only,

April 18 at 6:11 p.m. you made a fascinating point in your eighth paragraph. You were very Biblical and didn't have to wrench the Word of God to make your point. I guess I never saw it quite the way you dilineated it. Very good.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Historic Baptist]

The Bible says WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

No argument here! All those that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Is everyone going to call upon the name of the Lord? Sir, read your Bible!

"That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." [John 12:38-40]

You mean to tell me that a God who wants every single man, woman, boy, and girl of Adam's fallen race to be saved would ever cause someone to not be able to believe?

Anyway..Foreknowledge doesn't mean anyone was predestined..neither does predestined mean anyone was chosen before the world began in Christ. you can't be in Christ when Christ had no body to be in

Well, nevertheless what you think or understand because I could care less...look what the Bible says!

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," [Ephesians 1:4-5]

Obviously you skip over the good parts.

Limited Attonment only limits the power of God.

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." [John 10:11]

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." [John 10:26]

Your exposition on this please? If I told you I was doing something for a particular group of people, but then I turned around and said that you were not of those people...would it still mean I was doing it for you? Ha! There goes your logic.

want to see an unregenerated man seeking after salvation? Acts 16:30 the jailer was a Gentile..he asks "what must I do to be saved?

There is no such thing as an unregenerate man seeking after God. And if you say so, you are making God a liar! If an unregenerate man could seek after God what is the purpose of the Father drawing anyone???

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." [Romans 3:11]

I don't see where that verse says anything about that man not being born of the Spirit. Obviously if he was seeking God the Spirit was drawing him.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." [John 6:44]

no place where salvation is taught does it say anything about anyone already being elect or saying salvation is for the elect only. not one single place in your Bible.

Sad to say so, but you are wrong!

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48]

"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." [I Thess. 1:4-5]

That is how they knew they were elect; the manner in which the gospel came to them.

[ April 18, 2002, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]

 

[Historic Baptist]

Calvinist believe that none of the elect will be lost right? so then tell me who is being spoken about in 2peter2:1? when it says "But there were false prophets among the people even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies even denying the Lord that BOUGHT them..."

"Now it is true that those for whom Christ died are said to be bought by Him (I Corinthians 6:20 and 7:23); moreover, they are said to be purchased by Him (Acts 20:28, Ephesians 1:14), and redeemed by Him (Galatians 3:13 and 4:5, Titus 2:14, I Peter 1:18, Revelations 5:9). However, these terms are used with equal frequency when describing God's temporal relationship to the nation Israel. In particular, Israel is said to be bought by Him (Deuteronomy 32:6); purchased by Him (Psalms 74:2), and redeemed by Him (Exodus 6:6 and 15:13, Deuteronomy 7:8 and 13:5, II Samuel 7:23, I Chronicles 17:21). Now, upon closer examination of the present verse, it will be found that the latter sense much better describes God's relation to these false teachers than does the former.

"The chapter bears strong similarity with Deuteronomy 32. In particular: Peter describes these false teachers as utterly perishing in their own corruption (vs. 12); similarly, Deuteronomy 32:5 describes persons who have corrupted themselves. Moreover, Peter describes these false teachers as being spots (vs. 13); similarly, Deuteronomy 32:5 refers to its subjects as spots. Most importantly, Peter describes these false teachers as being bought of the Lord (vs. 1); similarly, Deuteronomy 32:6 refers to its subjects as being bought of the Lord. However, the persons of Deuteronomy 32 were not bought of the Lord through the blood of Christ, but through the Lord's purchase of national Israel under the Old Testament covenant.

"To the above, one may add the fact when these false teachers are described as denying the Lord which bought them, the word Lord is translated from the Greek word "despotes," a title which is never distinguishably used of the Lord Jesus Christ. The term occurs only 10 times in the scriptures. It is translated master upon five occasions; four of which have reference to men (I Timothy 6:1,2, Titus 2:9, I Peter 2:18), and the other is used illustratively of God (II Timothy 2:21). Upon the remaining five occasions, it is translated Lord (Luke 2:29, Acts 4:24, II Peter, 2:1, Jude 4, Revelations 6:10), where reference is either explicitly to God the Father, or may be reasonably interpreted as being so. Moreover, in the fourth verse of Jude, which is fully quoted above, these false teachers are said to deny the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. The first occurrence of Lord in this statement is translated from "despotes," but the second occurrence is from "kurios," which is by far the most common of the two terms, and the one that is used elsewhere, as here, with reference to Christ. Hence, Jude clearly uses "despotes" in distinction to Christ, which yet further adds to the already preponderant evidence that the false teachers were not in fact bought with the blood of Christ.

Indeed, with the last observation, the present verse appears to suggest exactly the opposite of what advocates of universal atonement would have it to say. The word Lord appears in II Peter upon 15 occasions; all of which have reference to God; most of which have reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, but 14 of which are translated from "kurios." What prompted Peter to depart from the habitually used "kurios" in 2:1, where "despotes" is used instead? If Peter is indeed asserting that the false teachers were bought with the blood of Christ, then this message would have been best conveyed with "kurios." The fact that a different term was used indicates that a different message was intended; thus, it appears that Peter was deliberately avoiding the suggestion that these had been bought through Christ's death. But what need would there be of such precaution if Christ did in fact die for all mankind?"

--Elders David and Wilford Pyles

 

[Historic Baptist]

The epistles of Peter were written to the Jews!

 

[KJV1611only]

Historic baptist Peter is NOT written to the Jew as you say.

SIMON PETER

 

[KJV1611only]

oops..I hit the wrong key...

2 Peter is written the Saved born again believer NOT to the Jew.

Simon peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, TO THEM that have OBTAINED LIKE PRECIOUS FATIH THROUGH the rightousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Siegfried]

Thanks for clarifying. For a second there I thought Simon Peter was posting on BB to tell us who he was writing to.

 

[Historic Baptist]

***All quotes, other than those from the Bible, are by Elders David A. Pyles and Wilford A. Pyles.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (II Peter 2:1)

Maybe I said too much when I said the epistles of Peter were written particularly to the Jews, but it is clear Peter is addressing Jews in this passage. Until you read this post in its entirety and prayerfully consider the position, I have nothing else to say. I will be glad to answer any questions you might have, but I will not deal with the slander. I will leave that up to Pastor Larry.

"In particular, Israel is said to be bought by Him (Deuteronomy 32:6); purchased by Him (Psalms 74:2), and redeemed by Him (Exodus 6:6 and 15:13, Deuteronomy 7:8 and 13:5, II Samuel 7:23, I Chronicles 17:21). Now, upon closer examination of the present verse, it will be found that the latter sense much better describes God's relation to these false teachers than does the former."

Concerning the passage of II Peter, it strongly parallels passages in the Old Testament.

"The chapter bears strong similarity with Deuteronomy 32. In particular: Peter describes these false teachers as utterly perishing in their own corruption (vs. 12); similarly, Deuteronomy 32:5 describes persons who have corrupted themselves. Moreover, Peter describes these false teachers as being spots (vs. 13); similarly, Deuteronomy 32:5 refers to its subjects as spots. Most importantly, Peter describes these false teachers as being bought of the Lord (vs. 1); similarly, Deuteronomy 32:6 refers to its subjects as being bought of the Lord. However, the persons of Deuteronomy 32 were not bought of the Lord through the blood of Christ, but through the Lord's purchase of national Israel under the Old Testament covenant.

"The connection between the second chapter of II Peter and Deuteronomy 32 is further strengthened by a linkage through the book of Jude. The reader will find a striking similarity between Jude and the second chapter of II Peter, particularly with regard to their descriptions of false teachers. Indeed, the parallelisms between their statements regarding false teachers are so numerous that one is lead to conclude that Spirit has here inspired essentially the same message through two different witnesses; however, the two messages are sufficiently distinct to make them complementary rather than redundant. Among the similarities, Jude also refers to these false teachers as corrupting themselves (vs. 10), and as being spots (vs 12). It is interesting to note that Deuteronomy 32:5, II Peter 2:13, and Jude 12 are the only verses in the Bible in which the wicked are referred to as spots, thus further indicating that the accounts of both Peter and Jude were written with Deuteronomy 32 in view.

"Moreover, in the fourth verse of Jude it is said of these false teachers: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. The Greek word for ordained in this verse is "prographo," which literally means "before written." The Greek word also occurs in Romans 15:4, where it is translated were written aforetime, and in Ephesians 3:3, where it is rendered wrote afore. Hence, Jude explicitly declares the case of these false teachers to have been considered in previous writings. Obviously, these previous writings must be of prophetic character, and indeed, upon closer examination of Deuteronomy 32, it will be found that this chapter contains prophetic elements. This is seen upon observing that the first part of Deuteronomy 32 is an address by Moses unto the children of Israel in which Moses warns of their apostasy in the latter days. The introductory remarks of this address are recorded in the final verses of chapter 31. Among these there is Deuteronomy 31:29, where Moses says, For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the works of your hands. This verse indicates the address of Moses to be of prophetic significance. In particular, it has pertinence to a time described as the latter days."

 

[Historic Baptist]

I find it particularly interesting of all the many arguments I posted you answer one.

 

[KJV1611only]

first of All Historic Baptist you should read the Bible instead of commentaries written by men..Slander you say? only on your part.

The book is written to the CHURCH..not to the Jew. doesn't matter who he is talking to they are saved born again believers unless you want to say otherwise.

You can't stand that the 1 verse in ch2
contradicts what you try to teach and you can't explain why it does.

James is written to the Jews.. notice the beginning again..to the twelve tribes..sorry you don't find that referance in Peter!

Second i haven't answered your staements..they weren't questions because you already have your mind made up to what you want to hear..I am working on a reply so be pateint!