Verses that PROVE Definite Atonement

[AresMan]

I don't see how people can merely use the pronouns in some verses to prove anything. Remember, each epistle (most of which by Paul) had a writer and a readership. It's natural that when you write to someone you would use pronouns such as I, me, we, us, you, ye, your, etc. A pronoun may or may not be specifically qualified except by surrounding context. Just because someone says "we" doesn't mean he implies "we" only. I would presuppose that whenever Paul says "we" he could mean I and the apostles with me at this time or I and you guys. However, even if Paul, when referring to salvation says "we are saved" (meaning I and you guys are saved) that doesn't mean he is being exclusive.
When Paul says (Gal 2:20) "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" does he mean that only he was crucified with Christ and that Christ only died for him exclusively? No! That is why I get frustrated at theological systems that try to inject so much reading into simple words and phrases where there was no such implication intended.

Dan, you have plenty of other verses that are good support for your point; the pronouns in general just don't do it.

See my pronoun topic for a look at some of these pronouns.

 

[All about Grace]

I don't see how people can merely use the pronouns in some verses to prove anything.

That's what happens when you read the Bible in light of a system.

 

[whetstone]

Why's everyone so hot under the collar? It's just a list of verses.

 

[jarhed]

Originally posted by whetstone:
Why's everyone so hot under the collar? It's just a list of verses.

Who is hot? It is being pointed out that you cannot prove ANYTHING by stand alone verses, particularly when used out of context. I read through your list and could not find one that even hints at limited atonement. We must go to context and word study to discover what terms mean. There is no doubt that Election is a Bible Doctrine. The same can be said for Predestination (which refers to the saved), etc. But scripturally they go to the nature of God, just like foreknowledge, and have nothing to do with what they are being accused of saying. The Bible interprets intself, I do not have that right or ability. The function of the Holy Spirit is to "lead you into all truth" and his "word is truth" and NO SCRIPTURE is of private interpretation. Not hot at all...just serious about sound hermenuetical rules and keeping the Bible as my final authority on all matters. Sorry for coming off as angry.

 

[King James Bond]

but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;

but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong ,

and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are ,

so that no man may boast before God.

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus , who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

And after such text we will hear from many people....."NO, NO, NO,.....it must be about ME!"

We hear things like "I chose God....it is not Him that saves people.....It is not Him that chooses.....it is people that choose because people have free-will.....they must have it."

How about a small lesson?

Here is a Biblical statement for all of you that are so good at choosing.

Here are some clues. The statement is missing something. The part that is missing refers to Someone.

All you have to do is look and see which statement that follows is the correct one.

Yes, you get to choose the correct statement freely!

But by _________ you are in Christ Jesus.


1: But by your very own doing you are in Christ Jesus.

2: But by your wise choosing you are in Christ Jesus.

3: But by your cleverness you are in Christ Jesus.

4: But by your heart so fine at choosing and your wonderful persistence you are in Christ Jesus.

5: But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus.

If you picked number 5 you did very well.

KJB

 

[jarhed]

Again and again I have tried to get a CONTEXTUAL answer from the Calvinists on thread after thread concerning the Time/Space Continuim and the fact that EPH 1. is VERY clear that ELECTION/the Choosing occurs AFTER THAT YE HAVE BELIEVED. The God of Calvin was constrained by time, but the God of the Bible was there where and when I got saved before the foundation of the world. Omnipresence is a biblical attribute of God. His foreknowledge is simply a part of his character...HE IS THERE. Acts 13:38 does not debunk this at all, it and all your other PROOFS simply go to the fact of Omnipresence. He chose me because I chose him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD because he is THERE. That does not throw free will out of the mix. Calvin has no answer for this. NONE. Because it is CONTEXTUAL BIBLE DOCTRINE and not hodge-podge verse pulling.

Here is another thought...Does anyone dispute that Marriage is a model of the bride of Christ...that is also Bible. Now, did you go out and CHOOSE your bride...most honest men will admit that they chose because they were CHOSEN! We want to be loved the same way God does because we are made like him (Gen 1:26). Thank God my bride is not a robot. She does not love me because I am powerful or have a lot of money...she loves me because she CHOSE to. And that is the BIBLICAL MODEL (TYPE!!!!!) of the Bride of Christ. Sorry Mr. Spurgeon...that's bible!

 

[King James Bond]

jarhed,

Repent.

KJB

 

[King James Bond]

And in your words I must find it only a time to rejoice! Rejoice in the Lord always!

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

My point to jarhead is that he needs to submit his mind to Scripture. That is my reason for "repent". It would do you well to do the same.

How do I cause people not to believe? Where I am employed I have told almost everybody to turn to Christ Jesus. So How do I CAUSE people not to believe?

So if I tell people to turn to Christ how is it I have caused them not to believe? I thought they had free-will?

Who am I to cause anything against such a powerful savior as free-will?

I thought Moses, David, and Paul were the murderers. I would have to say I find it not in my heart to claim goodness for myself either.

For as I hold the laws of God against myself I find I would be deserving of Hell and all of its fury.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

And you?

KJB

[ November 03, 2005, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by King James Bond:
jarhed,

Repent.

KJB

So... you want him to change his mind?

 

[Faith alone]

No one commented on the following statement I posted a few days ago:

But the part that bothers me is that if I believe in limited atonement, then I cannot honestly say to someone I may meet that Christ has died for him... how do I know that he is of the elect? I then cannot say "Let's put your name in here in John 3:16. For God so loved Billy that..." I have to be general... "God loves sinners," or "Christ died for sinners, and I'm one." The counselor can be confident that he is a sinner for whom Christ died, but not that the person whom he is counseling is one. Very sad.

Do you think this is true? Why or why not? Does a belief in limited atonement (definite atonement) affect how we share the gospel and the passion with which we preach it? I preach the gospel with both passion and assurance...

Thx,

FA

 

[2BHizown]

The focus is on God, not the person, not yourself! YOu tell them who God is, what He did and how HIs Son died on the cross for sinners. Has the person you're talking to ever considered that they are a sinner, spiritually dead without Christ? For great ways to share God's truth read, Tell the Truth by Will Metzger and take the focus off all but what a sovereign God has done and continues to do in this world and how He saves sinners and gives them eternal life!

 

[Pastor Larry]

But the part that bothers me is that if I believe in limited atonement, then I cannot honestly say to someone I may meet that Christ has died for him... how do I know that he is of the elect? I then cannot say "Let's put your name in here in John 3:16. For God so loved Billy that..." I have to be general... "God loves sinners," or "Christ died for sinners, and I'm one." The counselor can be confident that he is a sinner for whom Christ died, but not that the person whom he is counseling is one. Very sad.

If you believed that, then you would not believe in limited atonement as most Calvinists define it. In limited atonement, Christ's death is sufficient for all the sins of all men for all time. Therefore, you may look at someone and tell them so.

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But the part that bothers me is that if I believe in limited atonement, then I cannot honestly say to someone I may meet that Christ has died for him... how do I know that he is of the elect? I then cannot say "Let's put your name in here in John 3:16. For God so loved Billy that..." I have to be general... "God loves sinners," or "Christ died for sinners, and I'm one." The counselor can be confident that he is a sinner for whom Christ died, but not that the person whom he is counseling is one. Very sad.

If you believed that, then you would not believe in limited atonement as most Calvinists define it. In limited atonement, Christ's death is sufficient for all the sins of all men for all time. Therefore, you may look at someone and tell them so.</font>[/QUOTE]I realize that this is not how most Calvinists view it. I understand your distinction as well about the sufficiency of Christ's death. What you say makes sense... we don't know whether or not someone is of the elect (trying to think Reformed), yet I still gotta wonder about not being able to say, "Christ died for you" to everyone.

A real Calvinist cannot say that... he cannot even say that to someone who appears to be a Christian - says he believes in Christ and we also see a change in his life - because we cannot know, for certain, that he will persevere and prove to have genuine faith.

It also bothers me that Reformed soteriology does not allow us to have genuine assurance of our salvation, though Calvin said, "Assurance is of the essence of faith."

That's my issue. Perhaps you can explain how you approach it.

Thanks,

FA

 

[Faith alone]

posted by Faith alone:
But the part that bothers me is that if I believe in limited atonement, then I cannot honestly say to someone I may meet that Christ has died for him... how do I know that he is of the elect? I then cannot say "Let's put your name in here in John 3:16. For God so loved Billy that..." I have to be general... "God loves sinners," or "Christ died for sinners, and I'm one." The counselor can be confident that he is a sinner for whom Christ died, but not that the person whom he is counseling is one. Very sad.

Originally posted by 2BHizown:
The focus is on God, not the person, not yourself! YOu tell them who God is, what He did and how HIs Son died on the cross for sinners. Has the person you're talking to ever considered that they are a sinner, spiritually dead without Christ? For great ways to share God's truth read, Tell the Truth by Will Metzger and take the focus off all but what a sovereign God has done and continues to do in this world and how He saves sinners and gives them eternal life!

2BHizown,

OK, I follow you here. I agree - the focus of the gospel must be on Christ. But the person also needs to know that his sins have made a separation between himself and God (which is true for all) and also that "God loved the world in this manner: He gave His one and only Son so that whoever believed in Him might have eternal life." He needs to know that Christ died for him.

I'll have to look into Metzger's book - thanks.

FA

 

[Pastor Larry]

I realize that this is not how most Calvinists view it. ... A real Calvinist cannot say that

It seems like you are saying that mosts calvinists aren't real calvinists. I know I skipped some things in your post, but I don't think I am doing injustice to your thought.

A real Calvinist cannot say that... he cannot even say that to someone who appears to be a Christian - says he believes in Christ and we also see a change in his life - because we cannot know, for certain, that he will persevere and prove to have genuine faith.

I disagree. I think we can.

It also bothers me that Reformed soteriology does not allow us to have genuine assurance of our salvation, though Calvin said, "Assurance is of the essence of faith."

Again, I disagree. I think we can have assurance and in fact, I think Calvinists are the only ones with legitimate basis for assurance.

That's my issue. Perhaps you can explain how you approach it.

Metzger's book is very good. I like it. I spend a lot of time talking about the greatness of God and our sinfulness. I can say that Christ came to die for sin, to free us from its bondage. If person "will" believe and repent, they will have life in Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Faith alone:
A real Calvinist cannot say that...

Of course he can! Christ's death provided benefits for each and every person who ever lived. Christ's atonement is sufficient for every person who ever lived.

It also bothers me that Reformed soteriology does not allow us to have genuine assurance of our salvation, though Calvin said, "Assurance is of the essence of faith."

More nonsense! If course we have full assurance of faith. We believe and therefore God will finish that which He started, regardless of our sin. Where are you getting this nonsense?

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I realize that this is not how most Calvinists view it. ... A real Calvinist cannot say that

It seems like you are saying that mosts calvinists aren't real calvinists. I know I skipped some things in your post, but I don't think I am doing injustice to your thought.

A real Calvinist cannot say that... he cannot even say that to someone who appears to be a Christian - says he believes in Christ and we also see a change in his life - because we cannot know, for certain, that he will persevere and prove to have genuine faith.

I disagree. I think we can.

It also bothers me that Reformed soteriology does not allow us to have genuine assurance of our salvation, though Calvin said, "Assurance is of the essence of faith."

Again, I disagree. I think we can have assurance and in fact, I think Calvinists are the only ones with legitimate basis for assurance.

That's my issue. Perhaps you can explain how you approach it.

Metzger's book is very good. I like it. I spend a lot of time talking about the greatness of God and our sinfulness. I can say that Christ came to die for sin, to free us from its bondage. If person "will" believe and repent, they will have life in Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]Larry,

Several Reformed theologians and pastors have said just that, though - you can never know for certain. The Reformed version of assurance of salvation is very weak. I realize they are striving to express confidence in the promises of God, but their theology makes it a bit difficult at time, IMO. Let me give a specific example:

About 3 years ago my boss's daughter's fiance was killed about 2 weeks before their wedding. All of us in the Christian organization went to the memorial service - packed out. It was a nice service. Only one part really bothered me - made me very uneasy... When it came time to speak about the young man, friends began to come up one by one (there were 5 scheduled testimonies) and to share basically that so-n-so, let's call him Frank, had trusted in Christ several years ago, yet he wasn't really walking w. Christ. But as he fell in love with, let's call her Christ, he began to change. They spoke of the visible changes they saw in the young man as evidence that he was a true Christian. Their confidence in him being in heaven then was NOT in his trusting in Christ for salvation... it was NOT in Christ having paid the price for his sin even... it was in the visible changes they saw in the last year or so.

I asked, what if Frank had slipped back into his old pattern of living before his death, what theN? I'll tell you: no one would have had any confidence that they would see him again because they based their assurance of his salvation NOT on his faith, but upon his actions.

And I say... bah humbug!

"Assurance is of the essence of salvation." It is the Holy Spirit that gives us the assurance we are saved as a result of our faith.

Thanksx,

FA

 

[HanSola2000]

Cass saith:

Of course he can! Christ's death provided benefits for each and every person who ever lived. Christ's atonement is sufficient for every person who ever lived.

Well Cass, the above statement is an outright lie and cruel falsehood! HOW does Christ's death "benefit" anyone but the elect??? How is it sufficient for ALL when it is "limited"??? I know, I know, like the little jingle, which was surely written by a Calvinist said:

The barefoot boy with his boots on stood sitting there.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by HanSola2000:
Well Cass, the above statement is an outright lie and cruel falsehood!

Please leave your ugly, hate-mongering outside before coming into this forum.

HOW does Christ's death "benefit" anyone but the elect???

The gentle rains fall on the just and the unjust. Jesus' death, and resurrection, gave to all an example of patience and resignation in suffering, confirmed the doctrines that He taught, and, by rising from the dead, established the truth of the soul's immortality, and the resurrection of the body. That is a benefit to all men.

How is it sufficient for ALL when it is "limited"???

It is limited in its application. Do you think the atonement applies to the Devil? The Demons? No? If not, don't you also limit the atonement? Do you think the atonement is applied to everybody equally? If so, how can a person who has had all his sins atoned for go to hell?

 

[BobRyan]

God said "Whosoever WILL may Come"

God said "That WHOSOEVER Believes on Him might have everlasting life"

God said "How I WANTED to spare your children but YOU WOULD not" Matt 23.

Originally posted by King James Bond:

Hey everybody.....Bob claims men have free-will! Listen to master Bob!

We can be certain now because Bob said so!

If anybody can see all things Bob can!

I suppose now you are certain there are no forces affecting the wills of people?

As opposed to the antics of KJB above - I claimed that the DRAWING of God in John 12:32 ENABLES choice that EVEN CALVINISTS admit to!!

And yet KJB is so stuck on "antics and gimmickry" that he will not address the point.

Why so distracted KJB? Has your own argument run out so soon?

KJB said

I suppose that back of yours can take a whole lot of patting! Boast Bob boast!

More antics and gimmick? Why not make the Bible your friend KJB - respond to the Bible points given instead of your gaming!

KJB
Thank yourself Bob! And as you are praising yourself don't forget to thank yourself some ...


&lt;Obligatory and customary KJB antics deleted&gt;

In Christ,

Bob