Victims of Soteriological Dishonesty

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I obviously was not one of the "power brokers". However, the pastor that I would sometimes oppose stated, correctly, that the congregation could get more upset over cutting down a dead tree than they would over a theological issue.

About the only thing many SBC members will get upset about is if you question the pre-trib rapture.

Thanks for the warning:thumbsup:

 

[nodak]

RevMitchell, I have to wonder if this lady lives in my town. Sure sounds like it!

Your response was right on!

I'm wondering myself if they are teaching this "stealth takeover" stuff at the Calvinistic seminaries? Anybody know? All I know is that business meeting in the closest SBC church to me is basically just a time for the elder board (selected by the pastor) to tell the church what is going to happen in the next year. Or was the last one I attended. Found a better SBC church. Worth a farther drive.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So lets move the ball forward just for conversations sake....what do you think will happen now Mitchell that you have enlightened this women that they have a Calvinist skunk in the woodshed?

 

[Aaron]

I believe, indirectly, it is to blame. The pastor obviously didn't believe he would be called if it were known he is a Calvinist. Therefore, he knew his soteriology is unpopular. Therefore, the lack of general acceptance for his soteriology is to blame for his dishonesty.

You're joking, right? After all, noncalvinists never ever ever ever lie in a million quadrillion years.

*rolls eyes*

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

You're joking, right? After all, noncalvinists never ever ever ever lie in a million quadrillion years.

*rolls eyes*

What would be the difference if he was an Arminian (for lack of a better term) candidating at a dyed-in-the-wool Calvinist church?

None. He'd still be a liar.

 

[Revmitchell]

I believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace but I am not a Calvinist. It is certainly plausible that a Baptist pastor would make the same distinction that I do.

Of course Southern Baptists Churches are getting as close to baptizing infants as possible so who knows!

The average church member who is not theologically trained through the education system does not know nor do they make such a distinction. It is no different than cals that call anyone who is not a cal an arminian. And any pastor worth his salt should know this. Given that the pastor in the op who did not reveal his soteriological leaning should have taken the leadership position and revealed both his distinction, why he makes that distinction, and what his soteriology is. Other wise he is just looking to take advantage of his hidden distinction so he does not have to reveal his soteriology.

 

[Revmitchell]

RevMitchell, I have to wonder if this lady lives in my town. Sure sounds like it!

Your response was right on!

I'm wondering myself if they are teaching this "stealth takeover" stuff at the Calvinistic seminaries? Anybody know? All I know is that business meeting in the closest SBC church to me is basically just a time for the elder board (selected by the pastor) to tell the church what is going to happen in the next year. Or was the last one I attended. Found a better SBC church. Worth a farther drive.

Just for clarification I did not write this.

 

[OldRegular]

The average church member who is not theologically trained through the education system does not know nor do they make such a distinction. It is no different than cals that call anyone who is not a cal an arminian. And any pastor worth his salt should know this. Given that the pastor in the op who did not reveal his soteriological leaning should have taken the leadership position and revealed both his distinction, why he makes that distinction, and what his soteriology is. Other wise he is just looking to take advantage of his hidden distinction so he does not have to reveal his soteriology.

You identify a tragic failing in the Baptist community. Most are totally ignorant of not only the Bible but any doctrine derived from Scripture. They may have attended SS and worship services all their lives but they are still ignorant, the one broad exception is apparently "the pre-trib rapture".

I blame much of that ignorance on the pastors who preach 15 minute Rotary Sermons. Preachers should be preaching expository sermons in my opinion. Albert Mohler has a book out pushing this truth. Then the SS literature out of Nashville is generally worthless. I used the Scripture in the quarterly for years but then dispensed with it altogether. Back in the 70's the SS Board came out with literature for Advanced Bible Study. The only thing advanced about it is they attempted to point out supposed discrepancy in Scripture.

 

[Revmitchell]

I believe proper discipleship has been the problem. What we have had is a bunch of life's little lessons rather than doctrine. We are changing that at my church.

 

[OldRegular]

What we have had is a bunch of life's little lessons rather than doctrine.

Brother, You have hit the nail squarely on its flat head.

We are changing that at my church.

You are to be thanked. I believe that if people understand the Bible and doctrine they will be more able to handle "life's little lessons/problems".

 

[Revmitchell]

Brother, You have hit the nail squarely on its flat head.



You are to be thanked. I believe that if people understand the Bible and doctrine they will be more able to handle "life's little lessons/problems".

Yep. it is called putting the horse before the cart.

 

[quantumfaith]

You're joking, right? After all, noncalvinists never ever ever ever lie in a million quadrillion years.

*rolls eyes*

I don't know? Are you ever dishonest?

I am sure this happens, but anecdotally I would be willing to bet that "stealth" non-cal takeovers of predominantly Cal churches is a MUCH more rare event.

 

[Yeshua1]

Potential pastors should be honest about their beliefs when applying for a pastoral position. I certainly see an objection when the pastor to be adamantly denies Calvinistic beliefs only to guide the church into a Reformed view. It is dishonest. This is my concern. Many churches in the SBC do not have an official stance on Calvinism. Do you teach Scripture even if your interpretation and teaching contradicts the view of many in the congregation, or do you teach what they want to hear?

the pastor needs to be honest and upfront on his theology, bit the questions I have are:

Can't a Pastor who holds to reformed sotierology only pastor a local SBC church, as hunch is many would hold to tht in alocal baptist church!

And aren't there 'closet arminians/non cals" who get pastorates also in baptist circles?

 

[JonC]

the pastor needs to be honest and upfront on his theology, bit the questions I have are:

Can't a Pastor who holds to reformed sotierology only pastor a local SBC church, as hunch is many would hold to tht in alocal baptist church!

And aren't there 'closet arminians/non cals" who get pastorates also in baptist circles?

Calvinism/Arminianism is not a litmus test for a SBC church. Does not matter in that regard. In practice, and excluding doctrinal teachings about how one comes to salvation, they often look the same (excluding extreme forms of each).

I would have absolutely loved to have sat under the preaching of Whitefield or Spurgeon....especially Spurgeon. But I would be a fool to say that I could not have learned from Wesley as well.

 

[Revmitchell]

the pastor needs to be honest and upfront on his theology, bit the questions I have are:

Can't a Pastor who holds to reformed sotierology only pastor a local SBC church, as hunch is many would hold to tht in alocal baptist church!

And aren't there 'closet arminians/non cals" who get pastorates also in baptist circles?

Your spelling and grammar is so atrocious here that this was completely unintelligible.

 

[pinoybaptist]

How can they claim to have done their due diligence if they don't ask about the candidates' beliefs?? That's the height of stupidity, in my opinion.

and from what I'm reading, that's exactly what it is.
but, it happens.
somebody who held to 'no-hell' actually became a deacon in a PB church I know of.
tried to undermine the church doctrine, pastor caught it, and the guy was excluded from the church.
too bad, the guy was well-liked in the church, respected, and was an excellent song leader.
but the signs were there, and having come from a Bible Baptist church who were kinda really strict on their selections, made me wonder how in tarnation did this guy successfully 'run the gauntlet' ?
except maybe, there was no gauntlet ?

 

[OldRegular]

and from what I'm reading, that's exactly what it is.
but, it happens.
somebody who held to 'no-hell' actually became a deacon in a PB church I know of.
tried to undermine the church doctrine, pastor caught it, and the guy was excluded from the church.
too bad, the guy was well-liked in the church, respected, and was an excellent song leader.
but the signs were there, and having come from a Bible Baptist church who were kinda really strict on their selections, made me wonder how in tarnation did this guy successfully 'run the gauntlet' ?
except maybe, there was no gauntlet ?

Powerful strange, specially is a PB Church.

 

[InTheLight]

Sounds like something that happened at Dauphin Way Baptist Church in Mobile a few years back. The new pastor came in with a hidden agenda and nearly destroyed the church. He went so far as to say that if you didn't adhere to the five points then he doubted your salvation as if the Romans 10:9 says, "That if thou shalt call on the name of the Lord Jesus and believe.....and, oh, by the way, adhere to T.U.L.I.P., thou shalt be saved.

See my signature for my take on the Calvinist version of Romans 10:9-10

 

[InTheLight]

My response:
Sadly, your story is repeated frequently in Southern Baptist life these days. We receive many letters and emails similar to yours, in which people express their shock and dismay at the changes that have taken place in a church they may have loved and served for a lifetime. We realize the pain caused by such spiritual subterfuge.

It happened in a General Conference Baptist church I had attended from 2001-2008 here in the Twin Cities.

A CALVINISTIC PASTOR who deceives the church into believing he is not a Calvinist when in fact he really is one, probably by means of some obscure redefinition so that he does not consider himself to be lying.
So he hems and haws his way into a pulpit, creating a situation bound to explode once people with firmly Traditionalist doctrinal commitments learn the truth about the secret reforms taking place.

Exactly what took place in my church. We had an open Q&A meeting where the congregation asked questions and the answers were either evasive or over time were proven to be lies.

My question was this: "Does God elect people for salvation completely by Himself or does man have any responsibility at all?" And I got an evasive answer.

A MINISTRY SHIFT that quietly takes place without anyone questioning it or even seeming to notice. Suddenly there are a plethora of Calvinist speakers, Bible Study materials and training videos.

(1) developing an Elder Board if you do not already have one,

(5) the absence of altar calls in church or an invitation for someone to pray a Sinner’s Prayer expressing their faith in Christ.

All of these things happened. Also, he was asked at the Q&A meeting if he would ever drop "Baptist" from the church name. The answer was no. Six months later the name was changed and "Baptist" was dropped. Will we drop the Wednesday night prayer meetings? Answer: no. Six months later there were small groups and no corporate prayer meetings on Wednesday nights. The choir was discontinued. This is a pastor that preached from the pulpit (actually that was removed) that if people don't tithe they should sell their house and buy another, smaller house so they could tithe, and then immediately gave himself an exemption because he had prior financial commitments to other ministries. He fired the longtime visitation minister and brought in the assistant pastor's father-in-law to take the position.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your spelling and grammar is so atrocious here that this was completely unintelligible.

How about this then?

If a pastor was upfront and honest about holding to reformed theology, can he then be voted in as the pastor if agreed upon by the local church membership?

Is there a difference to you between a Pastor being reformed in sotierology mainly, not entire Reformed theology?

And aren't there 'closet arminians/non cals" within Baptist churches, who bring out that after pastoring also though?