Was it Friday?

[37818]

Wednesday sundown to late Thursday afternoon.
Mark 14:17 to Mark 15:41.
. . . And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. . .
. . . (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him; ) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem. . . .

Nisan 15th

 

[JonC]

In 33 A.D.
The 14th of Nisan begins Thursday at sundown and ends Friday at sundown.
Yes, in 33, both the 15th of Nisan and the 7th day Sabbath begins Friday at sundown and ends Saturday at sundown.
What never happens is Nisan the 15th the day before the 7th day Sabbath.
Mark 14:12-16 cannot be a Friday.

I did not say it was Friday. It was Thursday evening.

Mark 14:12–15 On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples *said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?” And He *sent two of His disciples and *said to them, “Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him; and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is My guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?” ’ “And he himself will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; prepare for us there.

The 14th of Nisan begins Thursday at sundown and ends Friday at sundown.

The "last supper" would have been on Thursday evening (the start of 14 Nisan).

 

[37818]

The 14th of Nisan begins Thursday at sundown and ends Friday at sundown.

If Mark 14:12-16 is from Thursday sundown to Friday late afternoon. Nisan 14.
What does that make? Mark 14:17, And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

 

[37818]

The evening following Nisan 14. Matthew 26:20, Mark 14:17.

The evening following the crucifixion. Matthew 27:57, Mark 15:42-43.

 

[JonC]

If Mark 14:12-16 is from Thursday sundown to Friday late afternoon. Nisan 14.
What does that make Mark 14:17, And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

Because that is what occurred. "Evening" is not one set time. It is often stayed "between the evenings". We'd say "afternoon".

Here is an example that the 1st Century Jew would follow (it is from the Mishma).

"When the day before the Passover happened to be a Friday, it was slaughtered half an hour after the sixth hour, sacrificed half an hour after the seventh hour, and the Passover sacrifice celebrated (immediately) afterwards." (Minsha)

Now, this reflects 1st Century Jewish thought.

If the Passover happened on a Friday (important because of the following Sabbath) the passover was sacrificed Thursday afternoon.

And this was evening (it was after the sun had reached its apex, but before it had completely set.....between the evenings, which in English is translated "in the evening").


Another explanation is from the Gemara:

"Toward evening,” we know that this religious duty must be discharged when the sun commences to move towards the west (evening). . . . . Hence this latter was slaughtered half an hour after the eighth hour (two and one half hours after noon); but on the day before Passover, when the paschal lamb had to be slaughtered after the daily offering, the latter was slaughtered an hour sooner. If the eve of Passover, however, fell on Friday, when the paschal lamb must be roasted before the Sabbath set in, the literal text of the passage in the Scriptures is abided by, and the daily offering is slaughtered as soon as the sun commences setting towards the west, i.e., half an hour after noon.



And this makes perfect sence with Mark. And it agrees with the other gospel accounts.


The Lamb sacrificed, two sent ahead to where the passover meal was prepared, and in the evening Jesus came with the Twelve.

 

[percho]

And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him, Mark16:1 YLT ------------

Did this take place on what we would call Saturday night?

Luke 23:54 YLT And the day was a preparation, and sabbath was approaching, and the women also who have come with him out of Galilee having followed after, beheld the tomb, and how his body was placed, and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.

Please tell me how they buy spices after the sabbath, prepare them and then rest the sabbath without a sabbath rest occurring then a regular day and another sabbath rest.

 

[JonC]

The evening following Nisan 14. Matthew 26:20, Mark 14:17.

The evening following the crucifixion. Matthew 27:57, Mark 15:42-43.

No. The evening at the start of Nisan 14 was Passover. This would be Thursday afternoon. The passover would have been killed around 1 pm Thursday. Jesus would have sent two disciples to find where the meal had been prepared. Later on that evening Jesus woukd have had the meal.

This would be Thursday (you are having difficulty with Jewish timekeeping and perhaps the imperciseness regarding times).

 

[JonC]

And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him, Mark16:1 YLT ------------

Did this take place on what we would call Saturday night?

Luke 23:54 YLT And the day was a preparation, and sabbath was approaching, and the women also who have come with him out of Galilee having followed after, beheld the tomb, and how his body was placed, and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.

Please tell me how they buy spices after the sabbath, prepare them and then rest the sabbath without a sabbath rest occurring then a regular day and another sabbath rest.

They rested on the Sabbath. Went to the tomb on Sunday morning to prepare the body (Joseph had wrapped the body with spices, but there was no time for the women to have washed and anointed the body because of the approaching Sabbath).

 

[37818]

Because that is what occurred. "Evening" is not one set time. It is often stayed "between the evenings".

I have John Darby.
Exodus 12:6, And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.

The best modern translation is "in the afternoon." Being between noon and sunset.

See: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.

 

[JonC]

I have John Darby.
Exodus 12:6, And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.
The best modern translation is "in the afternoon." Being between noon and sunset.
See https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.

Yep. And there was a difference between the killing and the sacrifice.

We think "evening" being later. But theirs was a period (two evenings with time inbetween).

This is why Mark fits well. The narrative is perfect, once we realize times vartied (earlier when Passover was on a Friday).

And once we move to the 1st Century we know they interchanged "passover" and the "unleavened bread" week....context determines the meaning.

That is how we can know Christ died on a Friday. The following Sabbath would be the Exodus "first day" of Unleavened Bread (another "Sabbath") making that Sabbath a "high day".

 

[37818]

No. The evening at the start of Nisan 14 was Passover. This would be Thursday afternoon. The passover would have been killed around 1 pm Thursday. Jesus would have sent two disciples to find where the meal had been prepared. Later on that evening Jesus woukd have had the meal.

This would be Thursday (you are having difficulty with Jewish timekeeping and perhaps the imperciseness regarding times).

Let us not confuse events.


Mark 14:12 is explicit,
. . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . .

Jewish dates begin with their evenings at sundown.
You want to identify this at Thursday sundown to Friday day. The Nisan 14th.

Now following Mark 14:12-16, is Mark 14:17, And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

 

[percho]

They rested on the Sabbath. Went to the tomb on Sunday morning to prepare the body (Joseph had wrapped the body with spices, but there was no time for the women to have washed and anointed the body because of the approaching Sabbath).

And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, [ bought spices,] that having come, they may anoint him, Mark16:1 YLT
and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command. Luke 23:56

Well it looks like they bought spices after a sabbath had passed Mark 16:1 AND they then prepared spices and then rested on a sabbath ie Friday dark to Saturday dark per the command. Luke 23:56

Bought after a sabbath / prepared them / then rested a sabbath.

Is that not what those verses say?

 

[37818]

Yep. And there was a difference between the killing and the sacrifice.

We think "evening" being later. But theirs was a period (two evenings with time inbetween).

Another issue.

Two different Hebrew word usages.

Between the two evenings
meaning in the afternoon.

And

Evening.

 

[JonC]

Let us not confuse events.


Mark 14:12 is explicit,
. . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . .

Jewish dates begin with their evenings at sundown.
You want to identify this at Thursday sundown to Friday day. The Nisan 14th.

Now following Mark 14:12-16, is Mark 14:17, And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

Exactly. There is no contradiction.

The confusion comes in when people do not familiarize themselves with 1st century practices and instead question the validity of Scripture.


The evening did not begin at sundown. Sundown was the end of the evening (the "Second evening) with the first being early afternoon. On one hand the actual date begins at sundown. But the Jews used the evening as well (ascribed to that day depending on circumstance).

We know that on Thursday around 1pm they woukd have killed the animal.

We do NOT know if this is how it was done 800 BC. BUT we are not talking about 800 BC. We are talking about Jewish practice in 33 AD.

They did not even use the same calendar (the Biblical calendar based on solaluner observation). They used the Talmudic caliender (observation and reckoning).



So we know that the animal was killed around 1pm Thursday (on the "passover" or "first day of unleavened bread"....even though it was by calender purposes early). We know this because Pasdover itself fell on a Friday.

We know Jesus sent two ahead and that evening met them for the meal (the actual date).


Just takes forgetting our presuppositiins and expectations, studying a little history, and trusting God's Word to be accurate.

 

[37818]

The evening did not begin at sundown.

The Greek translated evening does mean late.

The Jewish dates do begin at sundown.

And in Mark's first occurrence gives usage, Mark 1:32, And at even, when the sun did set, . . .

 

[JonC]

And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, [ bought spices,] that having come, they may anoint him, Mark16:1 YLT
and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command. Luke 23:56

Well it looks like they bought spices after a sabbath had passed Mark 16:1 AND they then prepared spices and then rested on a sabbath ie Friday dark to Saturday dark per the command. Luke 23:56

Bought after a sabbath / prepared them / then rested a sabbath.

Is that not what those verses say?

No, that is not what the verses say.

Luke 23:54–56 It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid.
56 Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes.And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.


Luke 23:55–56 (KJV) And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

What is said?

The women followed and saw how the body was laid. And then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. And they rested on the Sabbath. Then it looks like they purchased spices to take to the tomb along with what they had prepared in the ointment.

 

[JonC]

The Greek translated evening does mean late.

The Jewish dates do begin at sundown.

And in Mark's first occurrence gives usage, Mark 1:32, And at even, when the sun did set, . . .

Yep. Language works that way. Even technically "after evening" the word can be used to give the impression of "early in the night".

That is why context is so important. Thankfully Mark let's us know his meaning by describing the order of events and that the lamb was being killed (so we know it was "first evening", and technically before the day change). Then the Supper occurs several hours later.

 

[37818]

The first evening is late in the day (after noon). And the second evening is later (sunset).

It is a mistake to the every word by its first usage. We don't do thar in English, and we shouldn't in other languages.

If something happens "late" and something that happens later happens "late", let context speak.

Can be. Jewish days begin with sundown.
The Jewish hours begin again at sunrise.
John 11:9, Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

 

[JonC]

Another issue.

Two different Hebrew word usages.

Between the two evenings
meaning in the afternoon.

And

Evening.

These epistles were written in Greek.

And you are close. The first evening is just after noon (I'd say technically a different day). The second at sundown.

Between the evenings is afternoon but before sundown (to include what we call "evening").

What we have to keep in mind is that the gospels were not written by scholars trying to confound the comman man. They were written to the people, many of whom were looked down upon by the religious elite.

The difference is vernacular usage.

The passover was killed around 1pm on Thursday because Friday was the Passover and we know as a fact this was their custom. And they counted this as 14 Nisan. And then it was sacrificed. And around sundown they had the Seder meal.

That is factual. We know that to be 1st Century Jewish practice.

Your complaint seems to be that the 1st Century priests did not follow the Law exactly but added their own laws. I agree.

 

[JonC]

Can be. Jewish days begin with sundown.
The Jewish hours begin again at sunrise.
John 11:9, Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Are there 12 hours in the day?

There will be 12.5 tomorrow.
On Dec 21 there was less than10 hours.
On June 20 there will be 14.5 hours.

By your standard Jesus was wrong.

See what I mean? Context, brother.