Was it Friday?

[37818]

@JonC,
The following is my firm understanding.
Mark 14:17 evening is the start of the 15th of Nisan.
Mark 15:42 evening is the start of the 16th of Nisan, not the Sabbath [17th of Nisan].

Mark 14:12, begins Tuesday at sunset to the end of Wedensday day. The 14th of Nisan.

Three days and three nights. Matthew 12:40.
Thursday, friday 1st night and day.
Friday, Saturday, 2nd night and day.
Saturday, Sunday, 3rd night and day.
Luke 24:20-21.

It all fits.

 

[37818]

Are there 12 hours in the day?

There will be 12.5 tomorrow.
On Dec 21 there was less than10 hours.
On June 20 there will be 14.5 hours.

By your standard Jesus was wrong.

See what I mean? Context, brother.

No. By your judgment Scripture is wrong.
The truth is nights and days were divided up into 12 hours each.

 

[JonC]

No. By your judgment Scripture is wrong.
The truth is nights and days were divided up into 12 hours each.

No, by my judgment Scripture is correct. I was making a point.

"Hours" did not mean to the Jew what they mean to us. They are, first of all, estimates of daylight. These are then divided by 12. Every day changes in length but there are always 12 hours.

BUT if one cannot divorce "hours" from "60 minutes" then they cannot come to terms with a Jewish day.

 

[JonC]

@JonC,
The following is my firm understanding.
Mark 14:17 evening is the start of the 15th of Nisan.
Mark 15:42 evening is the start of the 16th of Nisan, not the Sabbath [17th of Nisan].

Mark 14:12, begins Tuesday at sunset to the end of Wedensday day. The 14th of Nisan.

Three days and three nights. Matthew 12:40.
Thursday, friday 1st night and day.
Friday, Saturday, 2nd night and day.
Saturday, Sunday, 3rd night and day.
Luke 24:20-21.

It all fits.

I think I have your date - 30 AD? Wendsday being the Nisan 14?

What I am missing is the additional Sabbath that fell on the Sabbath following Jesus' crucifixion.

Also, why was finding a tomb nearby, and the delay in the women's preperation, necessary because of the Sabbath?

Also....wouldn't that put the crucifixion on Thursday.....a Sabbath - not the weekly Sabbath but the day of the Holy Assembly which is a Sabbath (Nisan 15)?

Leviticus 23:6–7 ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. ‘On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.

 

[JonC]

@37818 ,

We can dismiss a few dates for Christ's death and burial.

It cannot be 15 or 21 Nisan because these were set aside as Sabbaths (for holy convocation, no work was to be done).

The crucifixion would have occurred before 15 Nisan to avoid occurring during the festival (all four gospels, I think, mention this for the priests feared the crowd).

So we are looking for a date before 15 Nisan but one where the Sabbath following Christ's death falls also on a holy day.

The only one I can think of around the Passover would be 15 Nisan falling on a Saturday. 21 Nisan, with a 20 crucifixion, would be too late.

 

[37818]

What I am missing is the additional Sabbath that fell on the Sabbath following Jesus' crucifixion.

The Passover week the 8 days. 14th thru 21st

14th
Tue-Wed night Wed day.


15th
Wed-Thur night Thur day.
Thursday crucifixion

16th Preparation Day
Thur-Fri night Fri day
Burial

17th the High Sabbath
Fri-Sat night Sat day

18th 1st day of week
Sat-Sun night Sun day
Resurrection

19th, 20th, 21st

 

[percho]

No, that is not what the verses say.

Luke 23:54–56 It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid.
56 Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes.And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.


Luke 23:55–56 (KJV) And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

What is said?

The women followed and saw how the body was laid. And then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. And they rested on the Sabbath. Then it looks like they purchased spices to take to the tomb along with what they had prepared in the ointment.

That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. Luke 23:54
Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby. John 19:41,42

Luke 23:55,56 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Returned where? Bethany? How far away was Bethany? I wonder how long it took them to walk home?
I wonder if they did any of that preparation of the spices and ointments on the sabbath?

Face it Jon. After the sabbath of the 15th, the feast day, was past, on a regular day of work day the 16th, they went and bought spices, carried them back home prepared them with ointment and then rested the weekly sabbath of the 17th of the first month.

When they arrived at the tomb just before morning light on the 18th the tomb was already empty.

I wonder how long the tomb was empty before they arrived?

Gen 1:5 and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one.
John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

How many hours do you believe in the called light/day above? What about the darkness/night?

And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. From Jonah 1:17

How many hours do you believe Jonah was in the belly of Sheol? --- 39 --- 48 --- 60 --- 72 ???? If you had to pick a number, which would you pick?

 

[JonC]

The Passover week the 8 days. 14th thru 21st

14th
Tue-Wed night Wed day.


15th
Wed-Thur night Thur day.
Thursday crucifixion

16th Preparation Day
Thur-Fri night Fri day
Burial

17th the High Sabbath
Fri-Sat night Sat day

18th 1st day of week
Sat-Sun night Sun day
Resurrection

19th, 20th, 21st

Yep.

My question is about a couple of issues.

How do you get around 15 Nisan being a holy day?

The Jews were prohibitted from any work on 15 Nisan. It was set aside as a Sabbath, a holy convocation, in the Law.

How do you account for the Sabbath being also a "high day" without the 15th of Nisan (or another day set aside by the Law for a holy assulembly)?

The reason I believe the 15th fell on a Sabbath is that John tells us the upcoming Sabbath was also a "high day". There were two of these around Passover (15 Nisan and 21 Nisan).

You serm to be ignoring that the 15th was set aside for a holy assembly which woukd have prohibited the crucifixion and burial to have occurred. It simply cannot be the 15th.

How do you account for Scripture stating that the Jews were going to exercise their plot outside of the festival time (before or after15th-21st to prevent a riot)?


I do not see how your timeliness is possible.

Your biggest problem is you jabe the crucifixion falling on a day set aside as a Sabbath (on the 15th) .

The second issue is you have the crucifixion set on a date all four gospels state it wouldn't occur (during the festival itself).

Lastly, you call the Sabbath a high Sabbath but do not provide a reason (it would be a Sabbath and a high day....a "double Sabbath"....if on the 15th or 21st).

 

[JonC]

That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near. Luke 23:54
Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby. John 19:41,42

Luke 23:55,56 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Returned where? Bethany? How far away was Bethany? I wonder how long it took them to walk home?
I wonder if they did any of that preparation of the spices and ointments on the sabbath?

Face it Jon. After the sabbath of the 15th, the feast day, was past, on a regular day of work day the 16th, they went and bought spices, carried them back home prepared them with ointment and then rested the weekly sabbath of the 17th of the first month.

When they arrived at the tomb just before morning light on the 18th the tomb was already empty.

I wonder how long the tomb was empty before they arrived?

Gen 1:5 and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one.
John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

How many hours do you believe in the called light/day above? What about the darkness/night?

And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. From Jonah 1:17

How many hours do you believe Jonah was in the belly of Sheol? --- 39 --- 48 --- 60 --- 72 ???? If you had to pick a number, which would you pick?

Returned from where they were staying for the festival. Apparently not very far.

Remember, the 15th was set aside as Sabbath. So it would have been a special Sabbath (the 7th day of the week AND the 15th of Nisan.

 

[37818]

How do you get around 15 Nisan being a holy day?

Exodus 12:16, Numbers 28:18.

How do you account for the Sabbath being also a "high day" without the 15th of Nisan (or another day set aside by the Law for a holy assulembly)?

The 7th day Sabbath landing on a day during the feast. Must still offer the daily lamb offering. Numbers 28:21.

How do you account for Scripture stating that the Jews were going to exercise their plot outside of the festival time (before or after15th-21st to prevent a riot)?

It was God's intervention.
John 11:48.
John 12:32.

 

[37818]

Palm Friday because 6 days before Nissan 14th, it cannot be a Friday. Nisan 8th was not a Sabbath, John 12:1-2, . . . There they made him a supper; and Martha served . . . . John 12:12, . . . On the next day much people that were come to the feast, . . . This being Nisan the 9th, being now 5 days before the 14th. Our Wednesday.

 

[JonC]

Exodus 12:16, Numbers 28:18.

The 7th day Sabbath landing on a day during the feast. Must still offer the daily lamb offering. Numbers 28:21.

It was God's intervention.
John 11:48.
John 12:32.

Yes. It is a "double Sabbath". My point is that this accounts for John telling is that the Sabbath after the crucifixion was also a high day.

What other high day (other than 15 Nisan) could have fallen on that Sabbath???

It can't just be a day during the Feast. It has to be one of two days - 15th or 21st - because those are the Holy assemblies. It can't even be Passover itself.

If God intervened then why would He tell us in all gospels that they were not going to kill Him during the Feast?

Regardless, you have the Crucifixion landing on a day it could not occur regardless of the day of the week. It cannot be 15 Nisan.

 

[percho]

Are there 12 hours in the day?

There will be 12.5 tomorrow.
On Dec 21 there was less than10 hours.
On June 20 there will be 14.5 hours.

By your standard Jesus was wrong.

See what I mean? Context, brother.

Gen 1:14 And God saith, 'Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years,

I do wonder why GOD picked the fourteenth day of the first month as, the Passover? Wonder if it pertained to the equinox of time in Jerusalem?

From Gen 1:5 and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;'

From 2 Cor 4:4:6 Textus Receptus ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ὁ εἰπών Ἐκ σκότους φῶς λάμψαι
That the God the one saying out of darkness light to shine ----- The light that God called day. Which Jesus says in John 11:9 is twelve hours. I believe this was said relative close to yet before the Passover.

Out of darkness light/day/twelve hours to shine.

Darkness followed by twelve hours of light equals after 1 day.

Mark 8:31 and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again;

After, three, twelve hours of light shining out of darkness, to rise again.
In, three, twelve hours of light shining out of darkness, will rise.

1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

What scriptures? I presented mine.

 

[JonC]

Gen 1:14 And God saith, 'Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years,

I do wonder why GOD picked the fourteenth day of the first month as, the Passover? Wonder if it pertained to the equinox of time in Jerusalem?

From Gen 1:5 and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;'

From 2 Cor 4:4:6 Textus Receptus ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ὁ εἰπών Ἐκ σκότους φῶς λάμψαι
That the God the one saying out of darkness light to shine ----- The light that God called day. Which Jesus says in John 11:9 is twelve hours. I believe this was said relative close to yet before the Passover.

Out of darkness light/day/twelve hours to shine.

Darkness followed by twelve hours of light equals after 1 day.

Mark 8:31 and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again;

After, three, twelve hours of light shining out of darkness, to rise again.
In, three, twelve hours of light shining out of darkness, will rise.

1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

What scriptures? I presented mine.

I don't know why He chose the 14th.

As far as days go, there are Biblical examples that 3 days and 3 nights do not mean complete days and nights.

Ester's fast for 3 days and 3 nights is a good example. It would not be 3 days and 3 nights using your method. But the Bible says it was 3 days and 3 nights, so your method can't be correct.

And by your example the darkness that came could mark another day (on the cross).

They needed watches, right?.

More importantly is that we have to rely on how these things were interpreted in the 1st Century as it was a sign for them.

 

[percho]

I don't know why He chose the 14th.

As far as days go, there are Biblical examples that 3 days and 3 nights do not mean complete days and nights.

Ester's fast for 3 days and 3 nights is a good example. It would not be 3 days and 3 nights using your method. But the Bible says it was 3 days and 3 nights, so your method can't be correct.

And by your example the darkness that came could mark another day (on the cross).

They needed watches, right?.

More importantly is that we have to rely on how these things were interpreted in the 1st Century as it was a sign for them.

And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb, John 20:1

Are we allowed to count any of this days of light as one of the three days and three nights?

 

[JonC]

20:1

Are we allowed to count any of this days of light as one of the three days and three nights?

I dont think so.

The Sabbath would have started at twilight on Friday.

Friday before twilight is a night-day

Saturday from twilight fright to sundown Saturday is noght,day.

Sunday from twilight Saturday to Sunday early morning while still dark is a night-day.

 

[37818]

Regardless, you have the Crucifixion landing on a day it could not occur regardless of the day of the week. It cannot be 15 Nisan.

But it was per Mark 14:12-16 explicitly the 14th per Exodus 12.

 

[JonC]

But it was per Mark 14:12-16 explicitly the 14th per Exodus 12.

Again, it wasn't. You are misleading the text.

In the evening of 14 Nisan the Passover was killed. This would be around 2pm. The pasdover would be sacrificed around 3 pm. Evening would come around sunset (and this is when Jesus arrived with the Twelve). After the meal Jesus went to the Garden. He was arrested. Early in the morning (probably still dark...like when Mary went to the tomb early in the morning when it was still dark) the Counsel met. Jesus was presented around 9 am.

Jesus was crucified on 14 Nisan and buried in a nearby tomb because the next day was a high day Sabbath (a "double sabbath"....Saturday and 15 Nisan).


What you seem unable to grasp is that it is impossible that the crucifixion occur on 15 Nisan. This was a '
"Sabbath" and the priests were otherwise involved. No work could be done.

 

[37818]

Again, it wasn't. You are misleading the text.

Not so.

Exodus 12:18, In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread, . . .

It being the 14th.

The Jewish days begin with their evenings. And end with the next evening beginning the following day. Mark 14:17. 15th.

What you seem unable to grasp is that it is impossible that the crucifixion occur on 15 Nisan.

You know better.

 

[JonC]

You know better.

Actually. I don't.

When we look at the Law we see that the Passover is killed and then sacrificed on 14 Nisan. When the evening has come the Jews take the meal. On 15 Nisan the priests are engaged as this is a holy assembly. There is no work done.

Then we go to the 1st Century. Here Mark tells us that the Passover is killed on the first day of unleavened bread.

This is not at all what the Law states.

BUT we know that the Jews had come to observe 8 days for the Pasdover-Feast of unleavened bread (the meal on the 1st day and the Feast starting the second).

Now, this is what we kown from extrabinlical 1st Century accounts. But what about Biblical accounts?

We know this from Mark (the Passover being killed on the 1st day of unleavened bread) and from Luke (equating "Passover" with "unleavened bread").

If we want to get nick picky, the Passover is the first day of unleavened bread (the Feast woukd start on the 15th and unleavened bread starts on the 14th).


You do seem not to understand exactly why the Crucifixion could not have occurred on 15 Nisan regardless of year.

The reason is that the Jews held a holy assembly on that day, it was a type of Sabbath (a day set aside as a holy convocation, no work was to be done).

Another reason is that the gospels explain why the priests did not arrest and kill Jesus during the feast.


The reason I say that you do not understand this is you have continued to post that Chrust was crucified on 15 Nisan.

You do not seem to understand why this is impossible.