Was Jesus A Man Before the Incarnation?

[webdog]

There was no Jesus befor the incarnation. There was Lord, Christ but Jesus was the man born of Mary, the body of flesh that Christ took, made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.

Brother Bob, you have argued along with me that God is omnitemporal and not bound by time. This statement denies that, and insinuates that Jesus only existed once our time allowed. Jesus was before the incarnation...maybe not to us who are bound by time, but He is the great I AM

 

[LeBuick]

This might be a stretch, but how about when David says, "the Lord is my Shepherd"?

It then goes on to relate this statement to many of the attributes of God.

 

[webdog]

This issue is: Was Jesus always a man, as in the God-Man?

Is Jesus omnipresent? If your answer is yes, then He has always been God / Man, as there is no "before" or "after" in omnitemporalness.

 

[webdog]

This could be the Son of God or God the Father.

James, did God the Father not say no man can see Him and live?

 

[Jarthur001]

The word Lord, and the fact that Abraham bowed before Him. We see in numerous places "The Angel of the Lord", who is known as deity, not just "an" angel.

One thing we will agree on....

This is not an angel.

But is this Jesus? Address the point of the OP?

 

[LeBuick]

Brother Bob, you have argued along with me that God is omnitemporal and not bound by time. This statement denies that, and insinuates that Jesus only existed once our time allowed. Jesus was before the incarnation...maybe not to us who are bound by time, but He is the great I AM

I may seem that way if you are looking at a pre-existent Jesus but Jesus was born in time. He has a birth and a death certificate.

If you drop the earthly tabernacle then you have the great I AM. With the addition of flesh you have the crucified savior who died for the sins of this world. Jesus was limited in other ways also, as Bro Bob keeps pointing out, he was made a little lower than the angels.

 

[LeBuick]

Is Jesus omnipresent? If your answer is yes, then He has always been God / Man, as there is no "before" or "after" in omnitemporalness.

Even here, I don't consider Jesus omni-present. Read what Jeus says, "John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

If he were omni present he would have been there.

 

[LeBuick]

James, did God the Father not say no man can see Him and live?

Did he not hide Moses in a rock and show him his hinder part?

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob, you have argued along with me that God is omnitemporal and not bound by time. This statement denies that, and insinuates that Jesus only existed once our time allowed. Jesus was before the incarnation...maybe not to us who are bound by time, but He is the great I AM

Webdog; I am wrestling how to put this in words. Jesus existed and stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world. He is I am that I am, but was not known as Jesus the man before incarnation but was known in many forms. The name Jesus came into effect when he took a body of flesh, but He himself has always been. I am trying to say "Jesus, the son of Mary". I thought after I posted that He stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world and He has always been but not as a carnal man. I think He has appeared in many forms.
I will have to sleep on this one Webdog so as to put it in the right words. I certainly believe that the son of God has always been, but I cannot find where He was carnal before his birth of Mary. What say you?

 

[Marcia]

Did he not hide Moses in a rock and show him his hinder part?

But God is spirit and invisible. I think what Moses saw was the light of the glory of God trailing away. The "hinderpart" is an anthropomorphism because we know God doesn't have a body.

BTW, I agree with your posts about Jesus being born in time. That is what the incarnation is all about. There is no God-Man before the incarnation.

 

[webdog]

I may seem that way if you are looking at a pre-existent Jesus but Jesus was born in time. He has a birth and a death certificate.

If you drop the earthly tabernacle then you have the great I AM. With the addition of flesh you have the crucified savior who died for the sins of this world. Jesus was limited in other ways also, as Bro Bob keeps pointing out, he was made a little lower than the angels.

To us Jesus was born in time. Does Jesus exist right now? Is He omnipresent now? If no, He's not God, and if yes, He's omnitemporal. I understand that God the Son became "flesh" and made a "little lower than the angels" within our time. I can not see how Jesus, who is the "same yesterday today and forever" only exists within our time.

 

[Jarthur001]

Is Jesus omnipresent? If your answer is yes, then He has always been God / Man, as there is no "before" or "after" in omnitemporalness.

I know the meaning...

Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human.

Your view is failing to address him as human.

The Son of God has always been. The Son of God was the Word of John 1 ...from the beginning. This covers one of the two natures of Christ. The 2nd nature of Christ is Jesus the man. The Son of God lowered Himself and was born of a vigin. The Son of God always was. The Son of God took on a body that was called Jesus that was born of Mary. Mary was not from the beginning.

God....
He was God before he was born in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word ... and the Word was God" ...with no start. (John 1:1)

Human...
"The Word became flesh" ...The body of Jesus had a start...(John 1:14)

He was born of a woman and grew up in a human family. He cried, He often got tired, and he hungered. At the end of his life, suffering the excruciating pain of crucifixion, he cried out in a human way, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Last..His body died. His body was placed in a tomb. His dead body arose from the dead.


The Spirit of the Son of God never died.

 

[webdog]

Even here, I don't consider Jesus omni-present. Read what Jeus says, "John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

If he were omni present he would have been there.

 

[webdog]

Human...
"The Word became flesh" ...The body of Jesus had a start...(John 1:14)

I agree the corruptible flesh had a start. The Son of God had no start. I believe the body He ascended into Heaven with (perfect, uncorruptible) was the same body He had prior to becoming flesh..."meat".

 

[LeBuick]

I am trying to say "Jesus, the son of Mary". I thought after I posted that He stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world and He has always been but not as a carnal man. I think He has appeared in many forms.
I will have to sleep on this one Webdog so as to put it in the right words. I certainly believe that the son of God has always been, but I cannot find where He was carnal before his birth of Mary. What say you?

Interesting, the slain lamb. The lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The second person of the God head. I love to point out that even though the lamb looked slain, John said he was alive because he walked up to the father to receive the scroll (Rev 5:7). None of these entities were born or can die. Christ, the second part of the God head can't and did not die.

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree the corruptible flesh had a start. The Son of God had no start. I believe the body He ascended into Heaven with (perfect, uncorruptible) was the same body He had prior to becoming flesh..."meat".

That is exactly what I said Webdog and that fleshly part was given the name of "Jesus".

 

[Brother Bob]

Interesting, the slain lamb. The lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The second person of the God head. I love to point out that even though the lamb looked slain, John said he was alive because he walked up to the father to receive the scroll (Rev 5:7). None of these entities were born or can die. Christ, the second part of the God head can't and did not die.

Exactly, He stood as a slain Lamb.

 

[Jarthur001]

To us Jesus was born in time. Does Jesus exist right now? Is He omnipresent now? If no, He's not God, and if yes, He's omnitemporal. I understand that God the Son became "flesh" and made a "little lower than the angels" within our time. I can not see how Jesus, who is the "same yesterday today and forever" only exists within our time.

buddy....you are way off on this.

The C/A is a debate I can live with. You are going way off the teaching of the Bible.

Jesus MUST be fully man just as much as he must be fully God. Jesus Body is NOT omnitemporal!!!

His body was not the same yesterday today and forever. His spirit is the same.

This MUST be seen. Or salvation is not there for us. Can you not see this?

****************

OK...never mind. I just read your post. Man...i was freaking out on this one...i thought you had gone off the deep end. I should have knewn better.

peace....James

 

[LeBuick]

But God is spirit and invisible. I think what Moses saw was the light of the glory of God trailing away. The "hinderpart" is an anthropomorphism because we know God doesn't have a body..

Ok, I'm still wound up from Church today. We had a great time in the Lord and since I only preached twice, I guess I still feel like preaching... You are right even if I did have to look up the word anthropomorphism.

 

[webdog]

But God is spirit and invisible. I think what Moses saw was the light of the glory of God trailing away. The "hinderpart" is an anthropomorphism because we know God doesn't have a body.

Exo 33:18 Moses said, "Please show me your glory."
Exo 33:19 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Exo 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock,
Exo 33:22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
Exo 33:23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

I didn't realize Spirits had body parts...