Was Judas Born-Again and Then Lost?

[Two Wings]

could Jesus Christ have said what He does, in Matthew 19:23-30, to someone who is unsaved? Could Jesus tell a lost person, that they will be in the REGERERATION, which is Life in Heaven?

ditto 37818.

I think you're trying to do with this scripture what the anti-gunners seek to do with the 2A ... disregard grammar and read what they want to read into it.

Only those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will be with Him forever. Those who have had their spirit-breathed-back to life from being dead in their sins. 1st Adam ... 2nd Adam.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You do not understand what it said, Matthew 19:28, "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." That event is yet future. So unless lost Judas has part in the first resurrection, Judas is not included.

I know that Judas is not going to to be on one of the 12 thrones. My point is, that Jesus said what He did in Matthew and Luke, in the presence of Judas, and it states that these words were addressed to all the TWELVE.

Judas, sadly is lost; however, it would seem from the language of these two passages, that he was "saved" at one point. I cannot see any other explanation for this

 

[JonC]

how do you answer what Jesus says to the 12, including Judas, about judging in the next life?

I don't know if this will help, but throughout Scripture the audience addressed excludes a portion. Think of Paul addressing congregational, even as some there would prove unfaithful. Or of Israel, knowing with hindsight that the message was for a smaller group ("true Israel").

Pastors today do the same. They address a congregation in a way that assumes all are saved while knowing some are not.

 

[SavedByGrace]

ditto 37818.

I think you're trying to do with this scripture what the anti-gunners seek to do with the 2A ... disregard grammar and read what they want to read into it.

Only those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will be with Him forever. Those who have had their spirit-breathed-back to life from being dead in their sins. 1st Adam ... 2nd Adam.

yet no one here has been able to account for Jesus' own words in the Gospels, that include Judas. Forget "theology", this is Bible teaching!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I don't know if this will help, but throughout Scripture the audience addressed excludes a portion. Think of Paul addressing congregational, even as some there would prove unfaithful. Or of Israel, knowing with hindsight that the message was for a smaller group ("true Israel").

Pastors today do the same. They address a congregation in a way that assumes all are saved while knowing some are not.

I agree with this, but Jesus is very clear in what He says, and to whom He says it. Not only so, but, like the Lord's Supper, when it was given, and to whom it was given, and what was said to them, included the 12. Jesus could have said this to the 11 AFTER Judas left to betray Him. Timing and language is very important.

 

[Two Wings]

Jesus could have said this to the 11 AFTER Judas left to betray Him. Timing and language is very important.

*are very important.

So is grammar and syntax.

So there's your answer. I apologize for being so insufficient as to provide this consideration ... but the Gospel is quite clear about the security/assurance of salvation. "NO---ONE snatches them from My hand" So, to be out of His hand means you were never there, by choice. Because God has given every man the measure of faith to believe. Romans.

(ed, my emphasis on John 10:28 resulted in some sort of emoji. sorry)

 

[SavedByGrace]

*are very important.

So is grammar and syntax.

So there's your answer. I apologize for being so insufficient as to provide this consideration ... but the Gospel is quite clear about the security/assurance of salvation. "NO---ONE snatches them from My hand" So, to be out of His hand means you were never there, by choice. Because God has given every man the measure of faith to believe. Romans.

(ed, my emphasis on John 10:28 resulted in some sort of emoji. sorry)

Thanks for your input. But you have not been able to answer the OP

 

[Two Wings]

Thanks for your input. But you have not been able to answer the OP

Yes I did. Quite directly.

NO.

Evidently you didn't like the answer ... and then proffered a plausible consideration with regard to time/place of the referenced quote of Jesus.

I can accept that.

It doesn't impact my salvation nor the Gospel one iota. Thanks for raising the question.

 

[JonC]

I agree with this, but Jesus is very clear in what He says, and to whom He says it. Not only so, but, like the Lord's Supper, when it was given, and to whom it was given, and what was said to them, included the 12. Jesus could have said this to the 11 AFTER Judas left to betray Him. Timing and language is very important.

I agree that the language is important. I think there is a danger of a false sense of salvation with "once saved always saved" (I do believe that once we are saved we are always saved).

Often being saved points to a future state (those who are saved pointing to a salvation to come).

"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The way I read the passage above is that in the regeneration, when Christ sits on the throne of His glory, you (those of the 12) who have followed Him will also sit on twelve thrones.

This would exclude Judas as he did not follow.

Where you read "you who have followed" to mean followed up till now I read it as those who have followed when Christ sits on the throne of His glory.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I agree that the language is important. I think there is a danger of a false sense of salvation with "once saved always saved" (I do believe that once we are saved we are always saved).

Often being saved points to a future state (those who are saved pointing to a salvation to come).

"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The way I read the passage above is that in the regeneration, when Christ sits on the throne of His glory, you (those of the 12) who have followed Him will also sit on twelve thrones.

Thus would exclude Judas as he did not follow.

Where you read "you who have followed" to mean followed up till now I read it as those who have followed when Christ sits on the throne of His glory.

Note the words "who have followed me", in the past tense. Not the future, "who shall follow me"

As I said language is very important

 

[37818]

My point is, that Jesus said what He did in Matthew and Luke, in the presence of Judas, and it states that these words were addressed to all the TWELVE.

The texts make no such claim. Judas in both cases is excluded.

Luke 22:22-30, ". . . For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! . . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

The texts make no such claim. Judas in both cases is excluded.

Luke 22:22-30, ". . . For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! . . . ."

So when it reads THE TWELVE it means ELEVEN???

 

[JonC]

Note the words "who have followed me", in the past tense. Not the future, "who shall follow me"

As I said language is very important

The language is very important. That said, we also have to be careful not to pick apart passages from the context to argue tenses. This was not a thesis to be graded but a word to the Disciples.

And it still should be past tense. We just disagree about where that tense is applied (past tense from now or from "that Day").

Example: of you running this race, those who will have crossed the line without turning back will recieve a prize. The "will have" is still past tense but ast tense to crossing the line.

We just disagree, brother. I do understand where you are coming from and I get your objection. I merely wanted to explain how I understand the verses as it is important to how I understand salvation in the present as it relates to a future state.

 

[JonC]

So when it reads THE TWELVE it means ELEVEN???

12 Disciples or 12 thrones?

 

[SavedByGrace]

12 Disciples or 12 thrones?

Addressed to the 12 Disciples about 12 Thrones. 1 for each of them.

How else can you understand that

 

[37818]

So when it reads THE TWELVE it means ELEVEN???

No. Who was Matthias? 1 Corinthians 15:5, ". . . twelve . . . ." And Matthias was being counted before he was actually picked.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No. Who was Matthias? 1 Corinthians 15:5, ". . . twelve . . . ." And Matthias was being counted before he was actually picked.

Jesus spoke to the 12 who were there with Him. There is no evidence that He was thinking of Matthias. You are Speculating

 

[JonC]

Addressed to the 12 Disciples about 12 Thrones. 1 for each of them.

How else can you understand that

I understand it as 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel and symbolic of God's people as a whole. I do not believe the Church (or even the Jewish Christians) will literally be divided into 12 separate groups.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I understand it as 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel and symbolic of God's people as a whole. I do not believe the Church (or even the Jewish Christians) will literally be divided into 12 separate groups.

It could all be symbolic, however, Jesus includes Judas in future events that are only for the saved.

The title for this OP has a ?, because I am not all to sure on the meanings of these 2 passages.

I don't believe that Judas is in heaven, this is very clear from Scripture. I am heavily leaning towards the P in TULIP, though there are many very tough Scriptures that go against this. etc

 

[JonC]

It could all be symbolic, however, Jesus includes Judas in future events that are only for the saved.

The title for this OP has a ?, because I am not all to sure on the meanings of these 2 passages.

I don't believe that Judas is in heaven, this is very clear from Scripture. I am heavily leaning towards the P in TULIP, though there are many very tough Scriptures that go against this. etc

I disagree that Jesus is including Judas. I believe He is talking to the group collectively, not necessarily speaking to each one individually, as He knew Judas was the "son of predition".

Literally, I believe Jesus was speaking to the 12 as a teacher speaks to a class or a pastor to congregation. And I view the emphasis to be on "that Day" rather than an immediate promise or guarantee to the whole.

I'm not a botanist (I do not grow tulips or daiseys) .