Was Judas Born-Again and Then Lost?

[37818]

You are Speculating

No. 1 Corinthians 15:5 is no speculation.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No. 1 Corinthians 15:5 is no speculation.

it does not agree with you!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I disagree that Jesus is including Judas. I believe He is talking to the group collectively, not necessarily speaking to each one individually, as He knew Judas was the "son of predition".

Literally, I believe Jesus was speaking to the 12 as a teacher speaks to a class or a pastor to congregation. And I view the emphasis to be on "that Day" rather than an immediate promise or guarantee to the whole.

I'm not a botanist (I do not grow tulips or daiseys) .

can Jesus speak to the group, in this case the 12 Disciples, and exclude any? I know that Judas is the "son of predition", and he betrayed Jesus, etc, but this is after his "fall"

Would a pastor tell those in his Church, Jesus loves you, and only direct it to some? I am not counting the Calvinist here.

I am very much open to getting to the truth of this...

I prefer the true English Rose myself, why accept counterfeits?

 

[JonC]

can Jesus speak to the group, in this case the 12 Disciples, and exclude any? I know that Judas is the "son of predition", and he betrayed Jesus, etc, but this is after his "fall"

Would a pastor tell those in his Church, Jesus loves you, and only direct it to some? I am not counting the Calvinist here.

I am very much open to getting to the truth of this...

I prefer the true English Rose myself, why accept counterfeits?

I would say "yes", Jesus can speak to the whole and exclude individuals.

A pastor would not exclude God's love for the world, but he would not be wrong to say Jesus is the Savior of the world while not indicating everybody in the world will be saved.

Paul often spoke in this sane manner when addressing whole congregations (quite a bit when addressing the church in Corinth).

I hope that helps understand why the passage can be taken either way. I am not saying your interpreting is linguistically flawed (it isn't). But I am saying that you may be putting too much on one possible interpretation of the passage as others are not only possible but may fit better to the context of the book as a whole.

I do not know what you mean by "the true English Rose" so I cannot speak to any counterfeits.

 

[Two Wings]

The title of your thread is pretty clear.

answers based upon scripture have been offered with clarity ... and with allusion therein.

I fully believe Jesus loved Judas ... and as Petra sang ... our rebellion, our betrayal when we fall (out of fellowship, not out of relationship). The betrayal from one He called ... for His purpose.

All of 'em were looking to "tune up" the Roman empire ... esp Simon the Zealot, right? But Judas never accepted Jesus for who He said He was ... and was not ... yet.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I would say "yes", Jesus can speak to the whole and exclude individuals.

A pastor would not exclude God's love for the world, but he would not be wrong to say Jesus is the Savior of the world while not indicating everybody in the world will be saved.

Paul often spoke in this sane manner when addressing whole congregations (quite a bit when addressing the church in Corinth).

I hope that helps understand why the passage can be taken either way. I am not saying your interpreting is linguistically flawed (it isn't). But I am saying that you may be putting too much on one possible interpretation of the passage as others are not only possible but may fit better to the context of the book as a whole.

I do not know what you mean by "the true English Rose" so I cannot speak to any counterfeits.

Interesting points

 

[SavedByGrace]

The title of your thread is pretty clear.

answers based upon scripture have been offered with clarity ... and with allusion therein.

I fully believe Jesus loved Judas ... and as Petra sang ... our rebellion, our betrayal when we fall (out of fellowship, not out of relationship). The betrayal from one He called ... for His purpose.

All of 'em were looking to "tune up" the Roman empire ... esp Simon the Zealot, right? But Judas never accepted Jesus for who He said He was ... and was not ... yet.

Where is the Bible evidence to say that Judas never accepted Jesus for Who He was

 

[AustinC]

Where is the Bible evidence to say that Judas never accepted Jesus for Who He was

Really???
You don't know???

Matthew 26:6-16
Meanwhile, Jesus was in Bethany at the home of Simon, a man who had previously had leprosy. While he was eating, a woman came in with a beautiful alabaster jar of expensive perfume and poured it over his head. The disciples were indignant when they saw this. “What a waste!” they said. “It could have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor.”
But Jesus, aware of this, replied, “Why criticize this woman for doing such a good thing to me? You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me. She has poured this perfume on me to prepare my body for burial. I tell you the truth, wherever the Good News is preached throughout the world, this woman’s deed will be remembered and discussed.”
Then Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve disciples, went to the leading priests and asked, “How much will you pay me to betray Jesus to you?” And they gave him thirty pieces of silver. From that time on, Judas began looking for an opportunity to betray Jesus.

Judas always viewed Jesus as the physical messiah who would conquer Rome and reestablish the Kingdom of Israel to the land. However, Jesus kept telling him and the other disciples that he (Jesus) would be delivered up to the Romans and die. Judas, after seeing how Jesus responded to the woman anointing Jesus for burial, decided to at least make one last dollar from being with Jesus.

Look at the comparative verses in John 12:4-8
But Judas Iscariot, the disciple who would soon betray him, said, “That perfume was worth a year’s wages. It should have been sold and the money given to the poor.” Not that he cared for the poor—he was a thief, and since he was in charge of the disciples’ money, he often stole some for himself.
Jesus replied, “Leave her alone. She did this in preparation for my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

sbg, once again, you live on an island of one and yet you bitterly scorn all who would offer you assistance off the island.

Instead of hating on everyone else, I suggest you take time off from this site and go search your own heart.

 

[percho]

Will Judas be raised from the dead?
Will Judas say Jesus Christ he is Lord?
By what power will Judas say, Jesus Christ he is Lord, if he, so says?

 

[percho]

Really???
You don't know???

Matthew 26:6-16
Meanwhile, Jesus was in Bethany at the home of Simon, a man who had previously had leprosy. While he was eating, a woman came in with a beautiful alabaster jar of expensive perfume and poured it over his head. The disciples were indignant when they saw this. “What a waste!” they said. “It could have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor.”
But Jesus, aware of this, replied, “Why criticize this woman for doing such a good thing to me? You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me. She has poured this perfume on me to prepare my body for burial. I tell you the truth, wherever the Good News is preached throughout the world, this woman’s deed will be remembered and discussed.”
Then Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve disciples, went to the leading priests and asked, “How much will you pay me to betray Jesus to you?” And they gave him thirty pieces of silver. From that time on, Judas began looking for an opportunity to betray Jesus.

Judas always viewed Jesus as the physical messiah who would conquer Rome and reestablish the Kingdom of Israel to the land. However, Jesus kept telling him and the other disciples that he (Jesus) would be delivered up to the Romans and die. Judas, after seeing how Jesus responded to the woman anointing Jesus for burial, decided to at least make one last dollar from being with Jesus.

Look at the comparative verses in John 12:4-8
But Judas Iscariot, the disciple who would soon betray him, said, “That perfume was worth a year’s wages. It should have been sold and the money given to the poor.” Not that he cared for the poor—he was a thief, and since he was in charge of the disciples’ money, he often stole some for himself.
Jesus replied, “Leave her alone. She did this in preparation for my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

sbg, once again, you live on an island of one and yet you bitterly scorn all who would offer you assistance off the island.

Instead of hating on everyone else, I suggest you take time off from this site and go search your own heart.

the disciple who would soon betray him

Was that foreordained? Foreordained as him being, of flesh?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:20,21 KJV

“And I said unto them, If you think good, give me my hire; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my hire thirty pieces of silver. And Jehovah said unto me, Cast it unto the potter, the goodly price that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them unto the potter, in the house of Jehovah” (Zechariah 11:12-13).

Was that going to take place?

Did the blood of Jesus, wash away the sin, of Judas?

 

[Two Wings]

Where is the Bible evidence to say that Judas never accepted Jesus for Who He was

let me clarify ... Not only WHO Jesus was, but what Jesus said of His own purpose ... to fulfill the Law. Not to be a conquering military flag officer ... YET

Matt 26 I believe is the chapter which addresses Judas' betrayal. If Judas accepted Jesus for who He is ... and what He said His purpose was at that time ... He'd have chosen otherwise, methinks. But he didn't, so he sought to press Jesus into "service" with His might and destroy the Romans physically.... right THEN.

 

[Two Wings]

foreknowledge doesn't necessarily mean lack of free will.

I know what my kid is about to do, but he has the free will to make that decision --- right up to the point where he needs to be saved from himself before I intervene.

we are like that.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Will Judas be raised from the dead?
Will Judas say Jesus Christ he is Lord?
By what power will Judas say, Jesus Christ he is Lord, if he, so says?

do you not believe that every single human being will be raised from the dead?

If you read what I have said, Judas will NOT be in heaven!

 

[SavedByGrace]

let me clarify ... Not only WHO Jesus was, but what Jesus said of His own purpose ... to fulfill the Law. Not to be a conquering military flag officer ... YET

Matt 26 I believe is the chapter which addresses Judas' betrayal. If Judas accepted Jesus for who He is ... and what He said His purpose was at that time ... He'd have chosen otherwise, methinks. But he didn't, so he sought to press Jesus into "service" with His might and destroy the Romans physically.... right THEN.

you make no sense here!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Did the blood of Jesus, wash away the sin, of Judas?

Luke 22 is very clear that Jesus died for Judas as well!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Really???
You don't know???

Matthew 26:6-16
Meanwhile, Jesus was in Bethany at the home of Simon, a man who had previously had leprosy. While he was eating, a woman came in with a beautiful alabaster jar of expensive perfume and poured it over his head. The disciples were indignant when they saw this. “What a waste!” they said. “It could have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor.”
But Jesus, aware of this, replied, “Why criticize this woman for doing such a good thing to me? You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me. She has poured this perfume on me to prepare my body for burial. I tell you the truth, wherever the Good News is preached throughout the world, this woman’s deed will be remembered and discussed.”
Then Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve disciples, went to the leading priests and asked, “How much will you pay me to betray Jesus to you?” And they gave him thirty pieces of silver. From that time on, Judas began looking for an opportunity to betray Jesus.

Judas always viewed Jesus as the physical messiah who would conquer Rome and reestablish the Kingdom of Israel to the land. However, Jesus kept telling him and the other disciples that he (Jesus) would be delivered up to the Romans and die. Judas, after seeing how Jesus responded to the woman anointing Jesus for burial, decided to at least make one last dollar from being with Jesus.

Look at the comparative verses in John 12:4-8
But Judas Iscariot, the disciple who would soon betray him, said, “That perfume was worth a year’s wages. It should have been sold and the money given to the poor.” Not that he cared for the poor—he was a thief, and since he was in charge of the disciples’ money, he often stole some for himself.
Jesus replied, “Leave her alone. She did this in preparation for my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

sbg, once again, you live on an island of one and yet you bitterly scorn all who would offer you assistance off the island.

Instead of hating on everyone else, I suggest you take time off from this site and go search your own heart.

what complete RUBBISH you talk! "Instead of hating on everyone else"??? [Snip]

 

[Two Wings]

you make no sense here!

perhaps a sabbatical from the board IS in your best interest.

I don't claim to be the most affluent communicator, but the paragraph reads reasonably straightforward.

ALL the disciples were watching for a conquering military general to liberate 'em from Rome. Kinda short sighted/low ball goal, but that was what was said of 'em all. Even the exchange with Nicodemus reveals the "low ball" standard for Messiah.

I've read commentaries about Judas' desire to force the revelation of the "Thor" type Messiah by identifying Jesus. perhaps those aren't completely accurate, but it's clear he accepted money for his betraying Christ.

 

[SavedByGrace]

perhaps a sabbatical from the board IS in your best interest.

I don't claim to be the most affluent communicator, but the paragraph reads reasonably straightforward.

ALL the disciples were watching for a conquering military general to liberate 'em from Rome. Kinda short sighted/low ball goal, but that was what was said of 'em all. Even the exchange with Nicodemus reveals the "low ball" standard for Messiah.

I've read commentaries about Judas' desire to force the revelation of the "Thor" type Messiah by identifying Jesus. perhaps those aren't completely accurate, but it's clear he accepted money for his betraying Christ.

Nothing of what you have written deals with the OP

 

[Two Wings]

Nothing of what you have written deals with the OP

just trying to help you out, dude.

apparently you don't want any help, but simply want to argue despite your post above.

#57 addresses your confusion ... expounds on the expectation of Judas for who Jesus said He was and why He was present ... and what His presence WASN'T.

I've already answered your pointed question and you didn't like it.

You are my grace training aid here ... so I'm gonna leave you to your own. IDK what's going on in your world, but God does. May you find peace in this pursuit of yours.

Adios.

 

[SavedByGrace]

just trying to help you out, dude.

apparently you don't want any help, but simply want to argue despite your post above.

#57 addresses your confusion ... expounds on the expectation of Judas for who Jesus said He was and why He was present ... and what His presence WASN'T.

I've already answered your pointed question and you didn't like it.

You are my grace training aid here ... so I'm gonna leave you to your own. IDK what's going on in your world, but God does. May you find peace in this pursuit of yours.

Adios.

Dude to you! I am not confused about this at all. I am open to serious and Bible based suggestions. What I have read in the replies are many opinions but none of them actually clarify the OP