Was wine in Jesus' day alcoholic?

[Abiyah]

Today is Rosh Hashannah, so, of course, we
went to synagogue at sunset last night to
celebrate. As usual, my husband and I brought
our own bottle of grape juice, but there was both
wine and grape juice there. Rosh Hashannah,
of course, is not what Christians call the "Lord's
Supper," which we observe on Passover, but
things were basically the same: there was wine
for those who use wine and juice for those who
prefer juice.

I know that we do things differently than most
other Baptist-based congregations, in which I
believe the wine or juice is provided by the church
itself. The synagogue provides some wine and
grape juice, but they know that people will bring
their own. Therefore, there are all kinds of differ-
ent wines and juices served, and we freely share
with one another.

I chose a marked "non-alcoholic sparkling wine"
for my husband and me last night, but it was a
brand I had never tried before. Then I looked
more closely at the bottle, and although it said
"non-alcoholic," it had 1/10 of 1% alcohol. Oh,
brother! But it was too late to return it, so we
took it.

When it was time to drink the wine, I opened the
bottle, and it Smelled Like GLUE! I nearly keeled
over! MtnWalker and I looked at each other, took
a teensy sip, and nearly lost it. WOAH, that stuff
was nasty! I have tasted better vinegar, and
indeed, we would have been better off with vinegar.

[ September 07, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Ps104_33]

God makes grape juice. Man produces alcoholic wine.

"Alcohol is nowhere to be found in any product of nature; was never created by God; but is essentially an artificial thing prepared by man through the destructive process of fermintation" Dr. Henry Monroe; Lecture on Alcohol

[ September 07, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Ps104_33 ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
God makes grape juice. Man produces alcoholic wine.

Really? Then why do we know that some birds and animals experience a form of drunkenness from eating grapes that have fermented on the vine?

Also, fermentation is a perfectly natural process that would happen to some degree even without man's intervention.

Mike

 

[Ps104_33]

God makes grape juice. Man produces alcoholic wine.

"Alcohol is nowhere to be found in any product of nature; was never created by God; but is essentially an artificial thing prepared by man through the destructive process of fermintation" Dr. Henry Monroe; Lecture on Alcohol

 

[Ps104_33]

Really? Then why do we know that some birds and animals experience a form of drunkenness from eating grapes that have fermented on the vine?

Also, fermentation is a perfectly natural process that would happen to some degree even without man's intervention.

Elaborate please

 

[Ps104_33]

If we use unleavened bread to symbolize the sinlessness of Christs' body why would Jesus use fermented grape juice to symbolize His Blood?

 

[DocCas]

This controversy will not be settled on this forum. May I suggest some "homework?" The best book I have ever read on the sujbect is "The Biblical Approach to Alcohol" by Stephen Reynolds, printed by Princeton University Press, and published by IOGT, 2926 Cedar Avenue, MPLS, MN 55407. Phone 612-721-7606. I highly recommend it to every person who desires to really know what the bible says about the consumption of alcohol. Be aware Dr. Reynolds is not some "fundy" radical, but has a Ph.d. from Princeton in biblical and oriental languages. He is on faculty at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and has written articles for "The Journal of Biblical Literature," "The Westminster Theological Journal," Zeitschrigt fur die Newtestamentliche Wissenschaft," "The Reformation Review," and was a consultant on the NIV OT and his written the section of ethics in Baker's "Dictionary of Ethics" edited by Dr. Carl F.H. Henry.

 

[Ps104_33]

But Christ did, by his own admission:

Luke 7:33-34 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. [34] The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"

They also called Christ a glutton. Are you a fat slob also as well as a wine-bibber?

THe best book I have ever read on the subject is " Bible wines, or Laws of Fermintation and Wines of the Ancients" by William Patton

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But Christ did, by his own admission:

Luke 7:33-34 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. [34] The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"

They also called Christ a glutton. Are you a fat slob also as well as a wine-bibber?
</font>[/QUOTE]No, but you're sidestepping the point.

Christ said John the Baptist did not eat bread or drink wine, but that he did. He then used that fact to point out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Their hypocrisy and negative spin on the terms doesn't change the fact he drank wine.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Really? Then why do we know that some birds and animals experience a form of drunkenness from eating grapes that have fermented on the vine?

Also, fermentation is a perfectly natural process that would happen to some degree even without man's intervention.

Elaborate please</font>[/QUOTE]Elaborate on what? I though I was pretty clear.

 

[Abiyah]

If you've not seen this happen, it is pretty hunorous.

 

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by latterrain77

John the Baptist did NOT drink any wine or strong drink (Luke 1: 15).

But Christ did, by his own admission:

Luke 7:33-34 "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. [34] The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"</font>[/QUOTE]Hi BrianT. Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, you did NOT read the Luke 7: 33-34 verse that you quoted carefully. Jesus said, “The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and YE SAY, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber" (the emphasis on "YE SAY" is mine).

Notice, Jesus merely said that HE “drank and ate.” The Lord did NOT say HE drank wine, but simply that HE drank. It was HIS enemies who SAID he was a glutton and winebibber (drunk).

Accordingly, Jesus did NOT say that he drank wine at all – quite the opposite – it was HIS enemies who accused HIM of it. Nice try though BrianT.

latterrain77

[ September 07, 2002, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
What do those who had an alcolhol addiction before coming to Christ do when the communion cup comes around?

Ps - Thos who suffer from alcohol addiction (whether it occurred before or after they came to Christ) have an alternative in all the congregations I'm aware of. In our congregation, for instance, wine is served from the pulpit side of the sanctuary and grape juice is served from the lectern side.

Joshua

P.S. The issue of not serving the wine to the laity dates back to medieval sacerdotalism. It's totally indefensible in my opinion.

[ September 07, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua ]

 

[Ps104_33]

P.S. The issue of serving the wine to the laity dates back to medieval sacerdotalism. It's totally indefensible in my opinion.

Why is it indefensible? I dont quite understand the statement you just made. Are you saying that the laity should not drink the "wine"?

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Sorry Ps - typo.

It should say "not serving wine to the laity..."

Joshua

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by latterrain77:

Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, you did NOT read the Luke 7: 33-34 verse that you quoted carefully. Jesus said, “The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and YE SAY, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber" (the emphasis on "YE SAY" is mine).

I *did* read it carefully. Notice what is happening in this verse: the Pharisees said John the Baptist had a demon because he did not eat bread or drink wine. IN CONTRAST, and much to the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, they also opposed Christ for doing the opposite of John. If Christ's actions were not in contrast to John the Baptist's, Christ's whole point against the Pharisees' hypocrisy breaks down.

Notice, Jesus merely said that HE “drank and ate.” The Lord did NOT say HE drank wine, but simply that HE drank. It was HIS enemies who SAID he was a glutton and winebibber (drunk).

What do you think he was "eating and drinking"??? The context is bread and wine. Why would the Pharisees accuse him of being a "winebibber" if he *didn't* drink wine? Why would Christ point out that he drank, in contrast to John the Baptist not drinking wine? There would be no point!

But one thing you do get right: they were accusing him of being *a drunk*. This is where the Pharisees were wrong. Christ was no more a drunk because he drank wine than he was a glutton because he ate bread. The Pharisees, like many on this board, equate drinking with being a drunk, which is simply wrong.

 

[HankD]

This is a thread which is shows itself approximately monthly or thereabouts.

It never ends well.

IMO this is the guiding Scripture...

Romans 14
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Its not the wine but the conscience (yours or your brother's).

HankD

[ September 07, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Ps104_33]

Here is a good web site for ya!

click here

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
Proverbs 31: 4 plainly illustrates that the consumption of wine or strong drink is prohibited for Kings. Jesus was the KING of KINGS (1 Tim. 6: 15, Rev. 17: 4). Accordingly, the LORD would not have consumed wine or any other strong alcoholic beverage.

Matt. 15: 23 illustrates that Jesus REJECTED wine, even when it was given to him for pain killing purposes!

Frankly I'm glad you brought up both these points. Proverbs 1 continues to say {v.6} "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts." So if wine is not for kings,, and strong drink is be given to one ready to perish and wine to one of heavy hearts, it is actually not possible for all these instructions in Proverbs 31 to be carried out. So either you nullify Proverts 31:4-6, or else you 'pick and choose,' denying only part of it.

Bishops may NOT partake of ANY wine (Titus 1: 7).

Not true --&gt; "For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain." {Titus 1:7, NASB}

"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;" {Titus 1:7, KJV}.

One who drinks wine on occasion is not "given to" it, unless one who is hospitable on occasion is "given to hospitality," as referred to in I Timothy 3:2 in the KJV phrase.

I do not believe ANY Christian should drink ANY alcoholic beverages – INCLUDING WINE!

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--" {Colossians 2:16}

[ September 07, 2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]

 

[latterrain77]

Hi BrianT. Thank you for your reply. It is appreciated and I thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject of drinking wine. Unfortunately, you still haven’t read it carefully.

Regarding John The Baptist, the LORD specifically said “drinking WINE” (verse 33, the emphasis is mine). Regarding HIMSELF, the LORD does NOT say WINE (v34) – but merely the word “drinking” (i.e. no word WINE). The Religious Rulers (NOT Jesus) accused the LORD of being a “winebibber.” That is why the LORD said “YE SAY” (as described in my previous post).

At NO point in these verses does the LORD ever connect the word “wine” to himself. The LORD specifically connected the word wine to John (v 33) because that is what the LORD meant. HE specifically did NOT mention the word “wine” about Himself (v34) because that is the way he MEANT it - exactly as it is written in the Bible.

Was Jesus a KING? I think he was. If HE was a King, then what are you going to do with Proverbs 31: 4? You can’t have it both ways Brian.

If Jesus drank wine, why do you believe HE spit it out when it was given to him on the Cross? (Matt. 15: 23) – did he change HIS mind about wine?

I know that many Christians would like to indulge in bad habits. But who is REALLY the Pharisee then BrianT?

latterrain77

[ September 07, 2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]