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Were non-Calvinists predestinated to be non-Calvinists?

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AustinC

Well-Known Member
I added "and worse".



Just because I and literally hundreds of thousands of other Christians don't espouse your non-Biblical extreme application of Daniel 4:35 to the point at which God foreordains the being and motion of every physical and volitional event doesn't mean we "struggle to accept/believe that God ordains the affairs of men". We argue that you don't understand what those verses mean because of your Calvinistically coloured philosophical lenses which mine the Bible for language that sounds correlative to your gnostic fatalistic deterministic view of God and his work.
We struggle with your refusal to accept the Biblical and reasonable truth that God only foreordains certain events - not all - and that even then, when it comes to volition-requiring events, he by his wisdom can navigate the free will of men to arrive at his desired event.
We struggle with your view of God as a spiritual and emotional weakling who can't prophesy anything unless he determines and causes it, who, as the supreme spoiled, fragile brat, cannot brook his will being thwarted at any time, and who isn't sovereign enough to allow, in his sovereign choice, such a free will to men as to deny his own will.
We struggle with your "God-as-author-of-all-iniquity" philosophy while you daftly swear that somehow God still isn't the author of sin even as he authors it.
We struggle with your God-as-hypocrite-cruel-mental-torture-master view of God, whereby he programs men to refuse his call while he holds them responsible for refusing it.
We struggle with your "holier and humbler than thou" Pharisaical spirit and your great pride in your great humility, the stench of which you cannot smell because your olfactory senses have been thereby overloaded into numbness.
We struggle with you being elected outside of Christ, your system relegating Christ to being the means of election rather than its cause, rendering him out to be the mere taxi-driver of your elected royal rump to heaven.
We struggle with the fact that some of you are ready to reckon us believers as lost to hell because we reject your fatalistic view of our God.
We struggle with your utter refusal to let scripture define scripture.

Such things we struggle with, not "that God ordains the affairs of men" as Biblically understood.
Indeed, you struggle...against the Sovereignty of God as revealed by God in His word.
Your open theology attempts to tear God down from His Supremacy and dominion while you preach that God is unaware and clueless until humans make their choices.
When the Bible is shared, and not interpreted, you claim I misinterpreted God. See how you argue and make claims against God's word while telling me that I misunderstand. George, you have been thoroughly answered and you choose a lesser view of God. God, at this moment has ordained that it be so. May God open your eyes and may you repent of the abomination of open theism.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
I added "and worse".



Just because I and literally hundreds of thousands of other Christians don't espouse your non-Biblical extreme application of Daniel 4:35 to the point at which God foreordains the being and motion of every physical and volitional event doesn't mean we "struggle to accept/believe that God ordains the affairs of men". We argue that you don't understand what those verses mean because of your Calvinistically coloured philosophical lenses which mine the Bible for language that sounds correlative to your gnostic fatalistic deterministic view of God and his work.
We struggle with your refusal to accept the Biblical and reasonable truth that God only foreordains certain events - not all - and that even then, when it comes to volition-requiring events, he by his wisdom can navigate the free will of men to arrive at his desired event.
We struggle with your view of God as a spiritual and emotional weakling who can't prophesy anything unless he determines and causes it, who, as the supreme spoiled, fragile brat, cannot brook his will being thwarted at any time, and who isn't sovereign enough to allow, in his sovereign choice, such a free will to men as to deny his own will.
We struggle with your "God-as-author-of-all-iniquity" philosophy while you daftly swear that somehow God still isn't the author of sin even as he authors it.
We struggle with your God-as-hypocrite-cruel-mental-torture-master view of God, whereby he programs men to refuse his call while he holds them responsible for refusing it.
We struggle with your "holier and humbler than thou" Pharisaical spirit and your great pride in your great humility, the stench of which you cannot smell because your olfactory senses have been thereby overloaded into numbness.
We struggle with you being elected outside of Christ, your system relegating Christ to being the means of election rather than its cause, rendering him out to be the mere taxi-driver of your elected royal rump to heaven.
We struggle with the fact that some of you are ready to reckon us believers as lost to hell because we reject your fatalistic view of our God.
We struggle with your utter refusal to let scripture define scripture.

Such things we struggle with, not "that God ordains the affairs of men" as Biblically understood.
Eloquent Post my friend.
MB:)
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Indeed, you struggle...against the Sovereignty of God as revealed by God in His word.
Your open theology attempts to tear God down from His Supremacy and dominion while you preach that God is unaware and clueless until humans make their choices.
When the Bible is shared, and not interpreted, you claim I misinterpreted God. See how you argue and make claims against God's word while telling me that I misunderstand. George, you have been thoroughly answered and you choose a lesser view of God. God, at this moment has ordained that it be so. May God open your eyes and may you repent of the abomination of open theism.

:rolleyes:The misrepresenting and high-minded spirit of Job's friends and royal suck-ups to God if you ever saw it.
 

Derf B

Active Member
Seems like you've been under the tutelage of Greg Boyd and other open theists...

I’ve read some of Boyd’s stuff, but not until I had realized the Bible said nothing about exhaustive foreknowledge. And I don’t like some of his opinions.

Both Arminianism and Calvinism suffer from a presupposition that leads them astray, and keeps them fighting with each other over how to defeat the other’s bad conclusions.


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AustinC

Well-Known Member
:rolleyes:The misrepresenting and high-minded spirit of Job's friends and royal suck-ups to God if you ever saw it.
I understand Job and his trials very well. You...are by no means...Job.
Second, Job had the same theology as his friends. They rightly believed in the Supremacy of God in all things. They wrongly thought that evil from God meant the person was being punished by God. Both Job and his friends had a higher view of God than any open theists could ever have.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I’ve read some of Boyd’s stuff, but not until I had realized the Bible said nothing about exhaustive foreknowledge. And I don’t like some of his opinions.

Both Arminianism and Calvinism suffer from a presupposition that leads them astray, and keeps them fighting with each other over how to defeat the other’s bad conclusions.


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What presupposition is that, Derf?
 

Derf B

Active Member
What presupposition is that, Derf?

I know I’m not the most concise poster, but that particular post of mine was pretty clear, and not so verbose that the point was lost, I thought.

But I’ll restate it more clearly. Both suffer from the presupposition that God has exhaustive foreknowledge. They just disagree on the source of that foreknowledge.


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George Antonios

Well-Known Member
I understand Job and his trials very well. You...are by no means...Job.
Second, Job had the same theology as his friends. They rightly believed in the Supremacy of God in all things. They wrongly thought that evil from God meant the person was being punished by God. Both Job and his friends had a higher view of God than any open theists could ever have.
Generic truths irrelevant to what I said...just like Job's friends.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I know I’m not the most concise poster, but that particular post of mine was pretty clear, and not so verbose that the point was lost, I thought.

But I’ll restate it more clearly. Both suffer from the presupposition that God has exhaustive foreknowledge. They just disagree on the source of that foreknowledge.


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What do you mean by "exhaustive foreknowledge?"
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
What do you mean by "exhaustive foreknowledge?"
Parable (DEMO) > Jonathan Edwards on God’s Exhaustive Foreknowledge of the Future

At the heart of open theism is the insistent argument that necessity is incompatible with moral accountability, praise and blame, as well as meaningful relationships governed by love. But if it is now acknowledged that such does not obtain in all cases, such as that of Josiah and Cyrus, one must ask why it obtains in any case?

Edwards cites several examples of the moral conduct of nations and peoples and individuals foretold by God, together with those events consequent to and dependent upon them. Chief among these was the prophecy of Jerusalem’s destruction and the Babylonian captivity. He points out that Jerusalem’s destruction “was foretold in Hezekiah’s time, and was abundantly insisted on in the book of the prophet Isaiah, who wrote nothing after Hezekiah’s days. It was foretold in Josiah’s time, in the beginning of a great reformation (II Kgs. 22)” (242), all of which, says Edwards, point to the absolute and unalterable nature of the prediction. “And yet this event was connected with, and dependent on two things in men’s moral conduct: first, the injurious rapine and violence of the king of Babylon and his people, as the efficient cause; which God often speaks of as what he highly resented, and would severely punish; and secondly, the final obstinacy of the Jews. That great event is often spoken of as suspended on this (Jer. 4:1; 5:1; 7:1-7; 11:1-6; 17:24 to the end; 25:1-7; 26:1-8,13; and 38:17,18). Therefore, this destruction and captivity could not be foreknown, unless such a moral conduct of the Chaldeans and Jews had been foreknown. And then it was foretold, that the people ‘should be finally obstinate,’ to the destruction and utter desolation of the city and land (Is. 6:9-11; Jer. 1:18,19; 7:27-29; Ezek. 3:7 and 24:13,14)” (242-43).

Open theists cannot easily dismiss these prophetic predictions as conditional or mere forecasts of the future given the fact that they are presented by Isaiah as proof why Yahweh alone is God. What demonstrates God to be God is precisely the specificity and certainty with which he predicts the future moral decisions of men and women. God proves his Deity, that he and he alone is God, by appealing to his exhaustive foreknowledge of the future and his ability to predict to the smallest of details everything that is coming to pass. He calls on all so-called “gods” and idols to do the same. In the final analysis, if God does not have knowledge of the future, he is no better than the stone and wood idols before which misguided men and women bow down in futile allegiance.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
I assume you know what foreknowledge means. Exhaustive means complete, utter, without exception.


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See above.
Open theism is a humanist view of God that seeks to minimize God and lift up human will. It is liberalism in disguise. I have watched as Greg Boyd follows the same path downward as Rob Bell. It's just sad. His church kicked him out of the pulpit and now he just scrambles to be heard by ignorant undergrads who don't know their Bible.
 

Derf B

Active Member
See above.
Open theism is a humanist view of God that seeks to minimize God and lift up human will. It is liberalism in disguise. I have watched as Greg Boyd follows the same path downward as Rob Bell. It's just sad. His church kicked him out of the pulpit and now he just scrambles to be heard by ignorant undergrads who don't know their Bible.
Re. Edwards: Without a particular verse (which no one has) that proves exhaustive foreknowledge, it’s much easier to show limited foreknowledge with examples of the absence of exhaustive foreknowledge. Hezekiah is a perfect example, where God had Isaiah prophecy two opposing outcomes within minutes of each other. Both did NOT come to pass (for obvious reasons).

Regarding Boyd, I already said I’m not a fan, just like I’m not a fan of a number of Calvinists and a number of Arminians, for various reasons (Jerry Falwell Jr comes to mind). And do you know why there are so many denominations of Christianity? Because of so many leaders that went down the wrong path in some way, usually regarding a disagreement on doctrine. Calvinist denominations might be the worst in that regard.

So, do you want to address my actual post, that said both Calvs and Arms are wrong? Or just throw out fluff that merely disparages.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Re. Edwards: Without a particular verse (which no one has) that proves exhaustive foreknowledge, it’s much easier to show limited foreknowledge with examples of the absence of exhaustive foreknowledge. Hezekiah is a perfect example, where God had Isaiah prophecy two opposing outcomes within minutes of each other. Both did NOT come to pass (for obvious reasons).

Regarding Boyd, I already said I’m not a fan, just like I’m not a fan of a number of Calvinists and a number of Arminians, for various reasons (Jerry Falwell Jr comes to mind). And do you know why there are so many denominations of Christianity? Because of so many leaders that went down the wrong path in some way, usually regarding a disagreement on doctrine. Calvinist denominations might be the worst in that regard.

So, do you want to address my actual post, that said both Calvs and Arms are wrong? Or just throw out fluff that merely disparages.
Post #78 addressed it already.

Daniel 4:34-35 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

Isaiah 14:24,26-27 The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, This is the purpose that is purposed concerning the whole earth, and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
 

Derf B

Active Member
Post #78 addressed it already.

Daniel 4:34-35 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

Isaiah 14:24,26-27 The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, This is the purpose that is purposed concerning the whole earth, and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

I see. So you think God is the author of sin, and you believe He predestines to hell, since He purposes everything?


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AustinC

Well-Known Member
I see. So you think God is the author of sin, and you believe He predestines to hell, since He purposes everything?


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God ordained angelic and human rebellion.
God ordained rebels to hell.
God ordained grace to whom he wills.
God ordains all things according to the counsel of His will.

You seem to think God is not in control. I disagree with your view of God. You have created an image of God based on your own imagination, not based upon God's revealed word.
I stand by the verses that I shared.
 

Steven Yeadon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I see. So you think God is the author of sin, and you believe He predestines to hell, since He purposes everything?


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Derf, I'm with you on these points, but you need to show what you believe from the Word. Philosophy and emotion arent taken terribly seriously by many in this forum.
 

Derf B

Active Member
Derf, I'm with you on these points, but you need to show what you believe from the Word. Philosophy and emotion arent taken terribly seriously by many in this forum.

On what points? I was merely stating his views, for which there is no scriptural proof.


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Derf B

Active Member
God ordained angelic and human rebellion.
God ordained rebels to hell.
God ordained grace to whom he wills.
God ordains all things according to the counsel of His will.

You seem to think God is not in control. I disagree with your view of God. You have created an image of God based on your own imagination, not based upon God's revealed word.
I stand by the verses that I shared.

You seem to think God had to be the author of sin to be in control. That doesn’t even fit with Baptist or Calvinistic confessions, much less what God has revealed about Himself.

You should consider where you are getting your theology from. Those verses don’t support you.


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