Were they really saved?

[Claudia_T]

I especially am beginning to like and have respect for standingfirminChrist

I might not agree with everything he says but I like that he doesnt try to weasel his way around sin.


and if the rest of you think this means Im implying that you're trying to weasel your way around sin then you're right :laugh:

 

[Eric B]

So not only do true Christians not sin, but they are never distressed and never despair? That really is a horrible use of that scripture...talk about putting words in God's mouth!

Hence, as I have said, this is not even just about suicide. I have seen people question the salvation of people just for being in "despair", and you see right there the logic for doing so! We are truly cold, and if you all think so much that God gives us "trials" to make us grow, then maybe you need some more trials to gain more compassion!(2 Cor.1:4) But instead, some seem to be just using their trials as a sort of "badge" to compare others (2 Cor.10:12) and judge them. So may God help us all!

EricB,
I did not say God would keep us from breaking bones, so quit lying about what I said.

I did quote Psalm 34:19, but I never mentioned verse 20. 20 is an entirely different thought; it is a direct prophecy concerning the Savior.
Verse 19 is speaking of the child of God being delivered out of afflictions.
You guys have to lie and twist our words along with the Word of God to make your false doctrine that suicides will go to heaven work.

Who's twisting either the Word of God or another's words (when you go on and claim:

"so, rejection of Christ is not unforgivable? One can reject Christ and be assured of entering heaven?" Whoever said that?)?

"Entirely different thought? That's a nice one! It's the same passage, and the same thought. It was ultimtely used as a prophecy of Christ, and for us, such passages can be picturing salvation (but not in your view, where we are disqualified if we do not have the right attitude!)
Precisely the problem is that we have sliced the Bible up into nice singular little packets that we tear completely out of their contexts throw out as proof of our doctrines, even make little cliche's out of them! This should reveal the horrible exegesis much of Christian teaching on suffering (and hence our cold reaction to it) is based on. This "emotional health gospel" you are putting forth is just one step away from its close cousin, the physical health gospel, which similarly tears out verses; often the same ones! (and also Satan, when tempting Christ!)

Ugh! I absolutely HATE when people on here start accusing others of judging someone just because they have another view of the scriptures..
Eric Im not judging anyone, ok?

Exactly Claudia,

We are not judging anyone. The Word of God has already done that.

Don't try to play that game. You then are the one making the word of God of no effect, because anyone and almost every who does judge can (and often does) claim "I'm not judging, it's the Word of God judging". That's what they all say!
But we have shown you that you are misusing passages to support your own preconceived beliefs (based on more misread passages), so it is NOT the "word of God's" judgment, but IS your own! And if God judges by it, you would be just as lost! We all would, and there would be no "hope" at all!

 

[Claudia_T]

Eric,

to be honest it looks to me like you are the one judging me not the other way around. I dont believe I have the right to judge anybody...

we cant know who is going to be in heaven

 

[Claudia_T]

but actually I dont care, the Bible says what it says and if you want to accuse me of judging, accuse away then

 

[tragic_pizza]

Claudia, you know I like you, but it sounds like you;re saying Eric can't interpret the Bible for himself; he must agree with your interpretation or he's absolutely wrong.

The Bible says waht it says, but people read what they read, and hear what they hear. You could be wrong, and not Eric. Just saying it's possible.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Bible defines only one "unforgivable" sin, and that was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which from the context, was watching Jesus perform miracles by the Spirit, and attributing them to Satan. You do not have the authority to try to define other "unforgivable" sins, and criticize anyone for saying a prticular sin is forgivable.

Ummm... in saying Jesus was casting out devils by the prince of devils, they were rejecting Him. I love the way you are twisting things to try to make us look guilty and revealing yourself in it. You say we have no authority to say which sin is forgivable, yet you are the one claiming suicides are forgivable.

Again, you assume God is measuring out different amounts of pain, and that is not what any of those scriptures say. Even with Job, that is one instance where a transaction between God and Satan is recorded for us. We can draw hope from this, but it does not say that this is the cause of every christ's problems.
So you take Daniel, which was a special case of divine protection, and compare it to today. And you compare a threat of renouncing God, to a totally different situation (a fire). There is another thread about "lapsis", and as far as I read, you did not have as much argument in favor of those who renounce Christ in such situations. The most I saw was "that is difficult..." or something like that.

Not that God is doling out certain amounts of pain. No, He is allowing that pain.

The whole 9-11 scenario (begun by xdisciple) was just an illustration of where your reasoning would lead. I kept bringing it up, because nobody addressed it, and now you all finally have begun addressing (I guess you need time to think up your responses to save your doctrine, and even these, which boil down to "you don't know they were Christians" isn't saying much.
Again, does God always protect people from such things today? Most of you fundies do not even believe in such supernatural miracles for today; saying it ended when the Canon was complete, and relegating it as "charismatic nonsense", as one magazine once said. Does a Christian never even have broken bones, like that Psam seemed to "promise"?

Not that we had to think of a response, but the foolish 'what if' situation questions were getting tiresome. And, the Bible says not to answer a fool according to his folly. And the questions do get to the point when they are foolish. The Word of God declares that we should wait on Him, we should love Him, we should trust Him. Enough said.

Sure! Nobody has EVER denied that. There is something called the Judgment seat of Christ, where we all must stand to give account of our actions in the body. That is where such would be hendled, so Hell (nullification of salvation) is not needed for their to be judgment for a Christian committing a sin like that.
And again, you misuse the concept of "faith", and what our faith is placed in. He is not "placing faith in a gun", "Faith" is about salvation, not "help in trials"; and he does not think the gun is "saving him" in any biblical sense. Again, nobody will be judged (to Hell) based on your own definitions of biblical terms.

Faith is not just in Salvation. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is not just in salvation.

 

[Claudia_T]

Claudia, you know I like you, but it sounds like you;re saying Eric can't interpret the Bible for himself; he must agree with your interpretation or he's absolutely wrong.

I think you are right about that at this point, I could listen to him if he didnt accuse me of judging, I dont like that...

Plus I havent read through every single post here to be able to keep up with it and Eric puts too much stuff into one post, making it difficult for me to read.

But still it just automatically turns me off when people start accusing me of judging because honestly Im a very non-judgmental person..


except that I do perceive them as trying to weasel their way around sin though LOL!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I especially am beginning to like and have respect for standingfirminChrist

I might not agree with everything he says but I like that he doesnt try to weasel his way around sin.


and if the rest of you think this means Im implying that you're trying to weasel your way around sin then you're right :laugh:

Better be careful, Claudia. They will accuse you of reading too much into the Baptist doctrine. They accused me of reading too much into the SDA doctrine because I agreed with you that suicide will not be found in the life of a Christian.

It is not that I agree with you, but rather that we agree with the Word of God on this subject.

 

[Claudia_T]

Am I a "Fundie"?

 

[tragic_pizza]

I think you are right about that at this point, I could listen to him if he didnt accuse me of judging, I dont like that...

Well, everyone judges to some extent or the other. And Eric's probably like me in that he lets his temper get the better of him sometimes.

Sometimes you have to get past the labels, you know?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Am I a "Fundie"?

Yes, but a very enjoyable one...

 

[Lagardo]

Now that this thread has gone from suicide to just despair, can someone please define despair so that we can distinguish between that which is not saved and a saved person having a bad day?

 

[Claudia_T]

Well, everyone judges to some extent or the other. And Eric's probably like me in that he lets his temper get the better of him sometimes.

Sometimes you have to get past the labels, you know?

Yeah it really disturbs me that people seem so grouchy with each other in here, I wish they'd be nicer.

I will try more to read everything from now on so that I can understand Eric better.

I dont like the extremes of anything either... it seems like both sides are a little too extreme for my liking.

So I end up with everyone disliking me

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And it is unfair to label others as decieving themselves to have an easy time as a Christian.

In this, and other threads, SFIC has advocated a false doctrine that a Christian never sins. That is not a stance against "an easy time as a Christian" but a false, works based salvation.

Another lie? do you have to do the job of satan accusing the brethren?

I have said over and over we sin. You apparently do not read my posts but with a judgmental view to accuse of that which is not true.

 

[Eric B]

Eric,

Okay you say we dont have the right to change that to mean "the end" of our lives. but read the entire chapter. The same section, Jesus is talking about that guy who built the barns and etc and so forth and then he dies that night and God says his soul is required...

So its talking all about the same thing right directly after that Jesus says the part about watching and waiting...

The whole context of that passage, is that when the end of the age comes (whatever or whenever that is/was), a person must be ready. Whether it is the person who is willing to renounce Christ to protect his life, or the rich person who does not even give a thought about Christ, all of this has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. It is out of context.

I have to say that I was just now reading the thing about Daniel and the fiery furnace.
I dont see that as the same as the 911 burning building thing.
The reason is because Daniel was witnessing for God.
In the 911 thing you were going to be killed anyway. and it wasnt any kind of "standing up for God" type thing either.
I think it is silly to use that but then again I havent read through all of the posts here... so maybe Im missing something

I just explained why that keeps coming up. Diggin, for one seems to have an even more radical view than you and SFIC, as he used Daniel to say that yes, they should remain in the fire, like Daniel was willing to.
Then, SFIC also spoke of "god's protection" in that context.

Eric,
to be honest it looks to me like you are the one judging me not the other way around. I dont believe I have the right to judge anybody...
we cant know who is going to be in heaven

But you all are the one making some bold claims on that. I am the one saying we don't know, regarding any given suicide.

and if the rest of you think this means Im implying that you're trying to weasel your way around sin then you're right

And the problem is that you all do not understand the extent of sin. You believe you basically, are "making it" because your sin is not apparently as great as someone else (like a suicide). Again, nobody is saying it is OK, so by constantly leveling this charge at us, you ARE, again, the one "judging", AND "weaseling around" this fact, to boot!

but actually I dont care, the Bible says what it says and if you want to accuse me of judging, accuse away then

Problem is, it doesn't say what you're saying. People are readintg things into it. Again, "that's what they all say".

 

[Claudia_T]

Better be careful, Claudia. They will accuse you of reading too much into the Baptist doctrine. They accused me of reading too much into the SDA doctrine because I agreed with you that suicide will not be found in the life of a Christian.

It is not that I agree with you, but rather that we agree with the Word of God on this subject.

I know what you mean, we have to be very careful and remember that we are enemies...

Someone on my Instant Messenger the other day who is a Baptist told me when he found out I was an SDA that he was surprised and that he really liked me and that he should be taking out the stake and hammer and drilling it through my heart since he's a Baptist. (he said that just jokingly of course though) it turns out we get along just great though

and I said wow! I didnt even realise we were supposed to be enemies. I really dont know all that much about what Baptists believe.

 

[Claudia_T]

Yes, but a very enjoyable one...

Thanks Tragic, Im really starting to like you too

and to think the other day I was going to call you a half baked pizza when I got mad at you about something...


Claudia

 

[standingfirminChrist]

So the Bible does not say, 'Thou shalt not kill'?

The Bible does not say, '... and we know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.'?

The Bible does not say, '...all murderers... shall have their part in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.'?

That we are to keep the faith?

Oh my! I better throw my Bible out 'vuz I apparently have been doing it all wrong. And my pastor! Can any of you guys point me to a liberal church that pats you on the back for sin and tells you God will accept one who claims to be a Christian but produces the evil fruit of suicide?

 

[Eric B]

Ummm... in saying Jesus was casting out devils by the prince of devils, they were rejecting Him. I love the way you are twisting things to try to make us look guilty and revealing yourself in it. You say we have no authority to say which sin is forgivable, yet you are the one claiming suicides are forgivable.

What are you talking about? Of course, they were rejecting Him. Who said they weren't? What am I trying to make you look guilty of, and being guilty of myself in that particular case? I'm not accusing you of blaspheming the Spirit, or any other unforgivable sin?
Are you just throwing empty criticism back because there is no other response?

Not that God is doling out certain amounts of pain. No, He is allowing that pain.

Like I said; it's the same thing. People try to attribute it to God, so that not liking the pain constitutes a rejection of God.

Not that we had to think of a response, but the foolish 'what if' situation questions were getting tiresome. And, the Bible says not to answer a fool according to his folly. And the questions do get to the point when they are foolish. The Word of God declares that we should wait on Him, we should love Him, we should trust Him. Enough said.

But you're twisting what exactly "wait on Him, love Him, trust Him" means, and then judging people based on your own definitions. The illustratioon highlighted that well, though I myself would not have used it. It was there, and you all were avoiding it, and that "don;t answer a fool" is another passage often thrown out, and used to get us out of jams, often created by our faulty misuse of scriptures.

Faith is not just in Salvation. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is not just in salvation.

And salvation is what that was speakiung of. Again, read the CONTEXT of that passage. "faith" in each case pertained to God's overall plan of the Gospel; not just anything that happens in life. Note the last verse; "Something better for us". That is salvation. You can't just take that and extend it to anything else in life we may "hope" for. That is creating a false gospel ("good news") with false promises. God never said everything in this life would be OK. In fact, many of you then turn right around and say that to suffering people, right after citing all the passages about how nothing bad would happen; thus confusing the heck out of people.

 

[Claudia_T]

I think maybe Im starting to realize something...


It seems like Eric and Lagardo view things as that they are "saved"
and so even if they are in a state of being away from God.. they are still "in Christ' and will be saved regardless of their sins.

StandingfirminChrist sees it more like the persevering till the end thing where Jesus is in control and if you are out of control then you are not "in Christ"

and I am different than anyone here because I view it as like right now I am loyal to God and doing what I know to be right... while counting on the blood of Christ. But if I turn away from God then I have at that point walked away and cant be saved.

...at least I think I am pegging everyone correctly