Western vs. Eastern Soteriology

[Walpole]

This sounds good to an extent. The only opposing argument I can think of is the influence Hellenistic philosophy had on Judaism during the Maccabean period. On all sides of Jewish sects there was a Hellenstic influence with one sect willingly adopting their customs (for example, Antiochus is not the most Hebrew name I could think of ).

Worth repeating what I wrote earlier...

It is not a coincidence the New Testament was written in Greek. The Hebrew and Hellenistic worlds converged with the Incarnation of the Son of God, expressed most beautifully by St. John's description of the Son as the Logos. It is a fact of history that Christianity, from its very beginning, synthesized Hellenism with revelation in light of the coming of Christ. It is not a coincidence that the faith of the Church came into contact and was born in the Hellenistic world.

 

[JonC]

Worth repeating what I wrote earlier...

It is not a coincidence the New Testament was written in Greek. The Hebrew and Hellenistic worlds converged with the Incarnation of the Son of God, expressed most beautifully by St. John's description of the Son as the Logos. It is a fact of history that Christianity, from its very beginning, synthesized Hellenism with revelation in light of the coming of Christ. It is not a coincidence that the faith of the Church came into contact and was born in the Hellenistic world.

I mostly agree.

But to highlight one issue - is there a reason to link John's use of logos with Hellenism rather than with Hebrew Scripture (with God's Word going out in creation)?

 

[AustinC]

Would help me a great deal brother if you can provide the inductive method to show the bible teaches SOLA SCRIPTURA.

That way we are not charged with TRADITION AND PHILOSOPHY as for scripture being the Final authority.

The Bible never uses the term Sola Scriptura. Nor does it use the term pope nor one true church nor Pontifex Maximus nor catechism nor traditions of the church.

 

[JonC]

The Bible never uses the term Sola Scriptura. Nor does it use the term pope nor one true church nor Pontifex Maximus nor catechism nor traditions of the church.

To be fair @utilyan did not ask if the Bible used the term. He asked if you could provide the inductive method that the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura.

 

[AustinC]

To be fair @utilyan did not ask if the Bible used the term. He asked if you could provide the inductive method that the Bible teaches Sola Scriptura.

To be fair, I answered the question.

 

[church mouse guy]

Worth repeating what I wrote earlier...

It is not a coincidence the New Testament was written in Greek. The Hebrew and Hellenistic worlds converged with the Incarnation of the Son of God, expressed most beautifully by St. John's description of the Son as the Logos. It is a fact of history that Christianity, from its very beginning, synthesized Hellenism with revelation in light of the coming of Christ. It is not a coincidence that the faith of the Church came into contact and was born in the Hellenistic world.

But it wasn't. Rome ruled the world but Alexander had conquered beforehand and left the Greek language as an international language. Everything Jewish was against pagan Greece and was more advanced than Greece, which was mired in pagan barbarism. Catholic tradition inflates Greek thinking and devalues Judaism.

 

[utilyan]

The Bible never uses the term Sola Scriptura. Nor does it use the term pope nor one true church nor Pontifex Maximus nor catechism nor traditions of the church.

Doesn't need to use the term Sola Scriptura. Just needs to teach it implicitly.

Inductive Method.

 

[JonC]

To be fair, I answered the question.

Your answer was to compare Sola Scriptura to pope and Pontifex Maximus.

I was hoping, apparently wrongly, that you may actually believe Scripture taught the concept of Sola Scriptura in a way that it does not teach the concept of a pope.

But I respect that you gave your answer and are sticking to it.

 

[utilyan]

Your answer was to compare Sola Scriptura to pope and Pontifex Maximus.

I was hoping, apparently wrongly, that you may actually believe Scripture taught the concept of Sola Scriptura in a way that it does not teach the concept of a pope.

But I respect that you gave your answer and are sticking to it.

Pope is in the bible.


PAPA might be better suited for English then the Latin POPE.

Pope means Father still used today endearment, Officially the office is bishop of Rome.

1 Corinthians 4

14I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.

 

[agedman]

All Calvinists do is use logical fallacies, like disparaging those holding differing view, rather than address the positions presented. Pay no attention to these efforts at deflection.

You are the one deflecting from the thread.

You need to get something out of your eye before critiquing the history of others.

 

[AustinC]

Doesn't need to use the term Sola Scriptura. Just needs to teach it implicitly.

Inductive Method.

Let's observe:

Genesis 1:1,3,6,9,11,14,20,24,26,29 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Psalm 119:105-107 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. I have sworn an oath and confirmed it, to keep your righteous rules. I am severely afflicted; give me life, O Lord, according to your word!

Now, let's observe church tradition and apostolic succession in the Bible. Let's observe relic collecting and pilgrimage. Let's observe papacy. Let's observe all these as equal or greater than God's word. Your turn.

 

[utilyan]

Let's observe:

Genesis 1:1,3,6,9,11,14,20,24,26,29 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Psalm 119:105-107 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. I have sworn an oath and confirmed it, to keep your righteous rules. I am severely afflicted; give me life, O Lord, according to your word!

Now, let's observe church tradition and apostolic succession in the Bible. Let's observe relic collecting and pilgrimage. Let's observe papacy. Let's observe all these as equal or greater than God's word. Your turn.

WORD does not equal SCRIPTURE. I gave you an easy challenge. Are you trying to tell me all those people who say this is a teaching in the bible are LIARS?

" the Word was God." IS the bible God? do you worship the bible?


I can give scripture for relics....piece of cake.
Apostolic accession......easy.
POPE....already did.

But you are giving me ZERO for something you should be JOYFULLY SHARING.


Besides if there is NO RULE for Sola Scriptura, Then I don't have to justify anything scripturally.

Thats like if you violate CHINA's constitution, Sorry jack this is AMERICA.

 

[church mouse guy]

WORD does not equal SCRIPTURE. I gave you an easy challenge. Are you trying to tell me all those people who say this is a teaching in the bible are LIARS?

" the Word was God." IS the bible God? do you worship the bible?


I can give scripture for relics....piece of cake.
Apostolic accession......easy.
POPE....already did.

But you are giving me ZERO for something you should be JOYFULLY SHARING.


Besides if there is NO RULE for Sola Scriptura, Then I don't have to justify anything scripturally.

Thats like if you violate CHINA's constitution, Sorry jack this is AMERICA.

Word is another name for Jesus and it also means Scripture. Some say that the reason that no bones were broken at the Crucifixion is that the Word cannot be broken. The expression is figurative such as saying that Jesus is the bread of life. The RCC ran amok on that one when they started the doctrine of the transubstantiation, which suggests cannibalism.

 

[Van]

Returning to the OP:

Sin - our thoughts and actions that miss the mark of God's will for our choices.
Sin nature - because of Adam's sin, all mankind was "made sinners." Romans 5:19 We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but we are in a sinful unholy state as a consequence of Adam's sin.

Total Depravity - undefined in the OP. But if the term is used Calvinistically, it is not biblical, fallen people can understand and respond affirmatively to the milk of the Gospel, 1 Cor. 3:1-3

God - God will judge and punish all mankind for their own individual sins, but will show mercy toward those "in Christ" and heal them by removing their sin burden (what God holds against them).

Atonement - undefined in the OP. But if the term is used Calvinistically, it is not biblical, God provides justification to life to all mankind through the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, but only those God transfers into Christ are reconciled.

Has the OP usage of Total Depravity and Atonement been defined to mean something other than the Calvinist doctrines?

 

[Yeshua1]

WORD does not equal SCRIPTURE. I gave you an easy challenge. Are you trying to tell me all those people who say this is a teaching in the bible are LIARS?

" the Word was God." IS the bible God? do you worship the bible?


I can give scripture for relics....piece of cake.
Apostolic accession......easy.
POPE....already did.

But you are giving me ZERO for something you should be JOYFULLY SHARING.


Besides if there is NO RULE for Sola Scriptura, Then I don't have to justify anything scripturally.

Thats like if you violate CHINA's constitution, Sorry jack this is AMERICA.

Written word of God is scriptures, while the WORD of God would be Jesus Christ!

 

[Walpole]

Word is another name for Jesus and it also means Scripture. Some say that the reason that no bones were broken at the Crucifixion is that the Word cannot be broken. The expression is figurative such as saying that Jesus is the bread of life. The RCC ran amok on that one when they started the doctrine of the transubstantiation, which suggests cannibalism.

When Word = Jesus = Logos

When Word = Scripture = rhema


Big difference. Christianity 101 stuff here.


RE: The Eucharist ---> If it is not the actual body and blood of Christ, then the logical conclusion to your position is Jesus instituted figurative / symbolic cannibalism.

 

[Walpole]

But it wasn't. Rome ruled the world but Alexander had conquered beforehand and left the Greek language as an international language. Everything Jewish was against pagan Greece and was more advanced than Greece, which was mired in pagan barbarism. Catholic tradition inflates Greek thinking and devalues Judaism.

Do you think it was merely a coincidence the Hebrew and Hellenistic worlds converged at the Incarnation?


I really am beginning to think most Protestants believe the Bible is the largest collection of coincidences ever recorded.

 

[JonC]

Pope is in the bible.


PAPA might be better suited for English then the Latin POPE.

Pope means Father still used today endearment, Officially the office is bishop of Rome.

1 Corinthians 4

14I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.

True. "And don't call anyone on earth your father". It is in the bible, but not really in the context of a "pope".

 

[George Antonios]

Good post.

Having little contact with the eastern folks, my children (who are world travelers) have greater depth to their conversations and interactions in the ministry and with the Scriptures.

Lest someone reading the post get confused, the use of the word "oriental" does not refer to the far east, but the near east. That is the land we typically consider as "middle east." It includes the lands that touch the east, southeast, and northeast side of the Mediterranean sea and the connecting lands to them (Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Pakistan...)

George, when you indicate you are in the "Druze territory," is that a segment of Eygpt, Israel, Jordan, or in some other area?

I currently live and pastor by the grace of God in Montreal, Quebec, but my hometown is in Lebanon.

Druze - Wikipedia

P.S. I am not a former Druze. Just our neighbours were.

 

[Yeshua1]

When Word = Jesus = Logos

When Word = Scripture = rhema


Big difference. Christianity 101 stuff here.


RE: The Eucharist ---> If it is not the actual body and blood of Christ, then the logical conclusion to your position is Jesus instituted figurative / symbolic cannibalism.

nope, rather that neither water baptism nor communion has anything to do with salvation itself!