Indeed. But that point is SHARED between Calvinists and Arminians - it is not a difference.
That is completely false. Calvinists believe God determines destinies, whereas Arminians believe man determines destines. Who is the Creator? Man or God?
Where they differ is that the Arminian will notice that God has sovereignly chosen the "Whosoever WILL" model because "he gets to and His Word says this is His choice -- He is sovereign He can do what He wants"..
This shows a total misunderstanding of the verse. "Whosoever will" will not unless quickened by the Holy Spirit. Man only has the free will to choose among evil and unholy decisions.
Where they differ is that the Arminian will notice that God has sovereignly chosen the "God So Loved the WORLD -- yes REALLY!" model because "he gets to and His Word says this is His choice -- He is sovereign He can do what He wants".
Yes, God does what he wants, and needs no help from man. God did not need man's help when Abraham decided to procreate a baby outside God's predestined line. This is not a partnership between man and God. God is the Creator. He makes the rules and He calls the shots.
Indeed that is the question that the Arminian would then ask the Cavlinist.
The word is Calvinist, not Cavlinist. Rippon can tell you I have no admiration for the man Calvin, but in the area of the sovereignty of God, Calvin is right on target despite his other errors. The question a Calvinist would ask an Arminian is "what gives you the right to determine your own destiny as a created being?" Who do we worship and adore? Who do we owe every breath we take to? Who sets the time of our birth and death? Who chooses our mates in life? Who gives us the skills to maintain a job? Who gives us eternal life? Who made the universe.
Because a number of Calvinist authors have stated that very thing about the difference between those selected to be saved and those selected to remain lost -insisting that there is "NO DIFFERENCE" at all between them - the difference ALONE is "God's choice". Not anything at all that can be pointed to between the two lost people - where one is selected to be IN and the other left.
It is the picture perfect definition for arbitrary.
That is partially right. The difference is who the Holy Spirit quickened. It is not our right to question why or decide who. We are the created beings. The difference between the lost and the saved is that Christ forgave the sins of the saved, and He did not the sins of the lost. It is that simple. Who did the Holy Spirit quicken? Duh, the elect. The only difference between lost souls is the degree of the evil. This is a game where almost does not count. One is either saved or they are not. The only reason you harp on the ability of man to determine his salvation is that you think it is not fair under any other system. The fact is, the Bible makes it crystal clear, that God is sovereign, and that He has not chosen to make man a partner in that decision.
I agree that they don't like this detail coming up. They just have no answer for it - other than some pulpit pounding. Which as we all know is not a funny sort of substitute for reason and argument, and indeed evidence in favor of a given POV.
To tell the truth, coming from the doctrine of your denomination, the term "I agree" scares the deepest essence out of me if I ever did agree. In addition to being dead wrong about election, predestination, and God's sovereignty, your doctrine teaches a off the wall Gospel.
But they have free will - they can choose that path if they so wish.
So here is a typical Arminian free will salvation experience.
"My, its a warm spring day. The sky is blue, the birds are chirping, the sun is shinning, what a great day to become saved."
I notice that even in your own post -aside from the much expected "harrumph!" you give no actual evidence showing where Calvinists do point to a difference between lost person-A and lost person-B resulting in God's choice of Person-A over B.
I notice you have no understanding of God's nature in sovereignty and the free will of man. To address your last statement in that quote, God is not obligated to tell you why He chose Person A over Person B.
I think we all pretty much expected that - even the Calvinists among us.
That was really uncalled for, an indirect swipe to the character of those who believe that God is sovereign. I will congratulate you on one thing though, you are the only person on this board that could get me to agree with Rippon. Before you debate Godly Christians, do it from a basis of doctrine or denomination that believes the Bible is the Word of God.
