What Are main Differences between Arms and Non cals?

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:11 says that "God is not partial" and Romans 2:4-16 shows a very logical and consistent method that God uses to determine the lost and the saved.

Nothing arbitrary at all in that - for God who "So loved the WORLD that He gave" -- yes really that is what He says about His own LOVE.

Nothing arbitrary at all in that - for God who "is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" Matt 23 -- yes really that is what He says about His own WILL.

Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" the unqualified ALL. Yes really that is what HE says about His Drawing of ALL the unqualified ALL.

Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says HE send Christ "to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD" 1John 4. Yes REALLY! That is what He said about the mission and scope of Christ in salvation!

Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says He gave Christ on the cross as "the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says He gave Christ "is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1.

Nothing arbitrary at all in that for God who says He gave Christ "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1.

Notice that I do not make the argument that "God is unfair" - rather I make the case that God "sovereignly chose" the free will system of "whosoever will" as outlined above - according to HIS Word.

You know what your problem is besides... <obligatory rant deleted here> ... you are taking your concept of fairness and wrapping it around God's neck .

Ok so now - once again - "with feeling" -- :godisgood:

Notice that I do not make the argument that "God is unfair" - rather I make the case that God "sovereignly chose" the free will system of "whosoever will" as outlined above - according to HIS Word.

I don't complain about His sovereign right to make that choice. I am simply Glad that the Bible says - He did.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Skandelon]

How then HAS God elected the elect?

He elected to save, adopt, sanctify whosoever believes. He predetermined to do this, for both Jew and non-Jew, from the beginning of time.

The parable of the wedding banquet lays this out very clearly. He invited the Jews first and then the Gentiles. Those elected to enter were those appropriately dressed in wedding garments (righteousness through faith in Christ). Their being invited was unconditional (whosoever), but their being chosen to enter was conditioned upon their attire (faith).

"Many are called, few are chosen."

 

[Revmitchell]

He elected to save, adopt, sanctify whosoever believes. He predetermined to do this, for both Jew and non-Jew, from the beginning of time.

The parable of the wedding banquet lays this out very clearly. He invited the Jews first and then the Gentiles. Those elected to enter were those appropriately dressed in wedding garments (righteousness through faith in Christ). Their being invited was unconditional (whosoever), but their being chosen to enter was conditioned upon their attire (faith).

"Many are called, few are chosen."

Very well said even from a recovering Calvinist. :laugh:

 

[Herald]

He elected to save, adopt, sanctify whosoever believes. He predetermined to do this, for both Jew and non-Jew, from the beginning of time.

Skan, how is this different from the foreseen faith view that teaches the same sort of election?

 

[Skandelon]

Skan, how is this different from the foreseen faith view that teaches the same sort of election?

Because the 'foreseen faith' view makes the same basic hermeneutical error of Calvinism by individualizing the text. For example, God foresaw Joe's response and based on what he foresaw God made a choice. That is not what we believe is the intent of author.

The author, according to our view, intends to say that God has planned all along to sanctify, adopt and save whosoever is in Christ, through faith, regardless of their nationality. The Jews, as a corporate body, were taught to be the 'elect' and 'predestinated' ones during that time and Paul was debunking that concept by teaching that God has ALWAYS planned to save all who are in Christ, even the non-Jew.

 

[Skandelon]

This quote from a noted scholar on the subject may help:

Historically, both Calvinists and Arminians have predominantly understood election unto salvation as individual.[25] That is, each individual is elected/selected to enter into a saving relationship with God through Christ.[26] The central difference between the two views is that Calvinists see election as unconditional[27] and Arminians see election as conditional on divine foreknowledge of human faith.[28] While corporate election is not the traditional Arminian position, it is totally consistent with Arminian theology because it is a conditional election—conditional upon union with Christ through faith.[29] According to Abasciano...

 

[webdog]

That is completely false. Calvinists believe God determines destinies, whereas Arminians believe man determines destines. Who is the Creator? Man or God?

Complete misrepesentation., not to mention you have indicted yourself as a double predestinarian with this statement and labeled God as the author of sin.

This shows a total misunderstanding of the verse. "Whosoever will" will not unless quickened by the Holy Spirit. Man only has the free will to choose among evil and unholy decisions.

Clearly you do not understand the verse as pre faith regeneration isn't found anywhere in it (or anywhere at all for that matter). The Bible teaches life is in Christ, never prior. John 14:6 doesn't say we come to God through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, God does what he wants, and needs no help from man. God did not need man's help when Abraham decided to procreate a baby outside God's predestined line. This is not a partnership between man and God. God is the Creator. He makes the rules and He calls the shots.

Of course He needs no help from man. This is not the same thing as Him desiring it that way. In one breathe you say He calls the shots...then proceed to tell us how He does it. Presumptuous.

The word is Calvinist, not Cavlinist. Rippon can tell you I have no admiration for the man Calvin, but in the area of the sovereignty of God, Calvin is right on target despite his other errors. The question a Calvinist would ask an Arminian is "what gives you the right to determine your own destiny as a created being?" Who do we worship and adore? Who do we owe every breath we take to? Who sets the time of our birth and death? Who chooses our mates in life? Who gives us the skills to maintain a job? Who gives us eternal life? Who made the universe.

No arminian I know wouldn't be able to answer those questions any different than you.

That is partially right. The difference is who the Holy Spirit quickened. It is not our right to question why or decide who. We are the created beings. The difference between the lost and the saved is that Christ forgave the sins of the saved, and He did not the sins of the lost. It is that simple. Who did the Holy Spirit quicken? Duh, the elect. The only difference between lost souls is the degree of the evil. This is a game where almost does not count. One is either saved or they are not. The only reason you harp on the ability of man to determine his salvation is that you think it is not fair under any other system. The fact is, the Bible makes it crystal clear, that God is sovereign, and that He has not chosen to make man a partner in that decision.

No...the Bible is crystal clear God requires a response, and given the ability to respond. Nobody has mentioned fairness here but you.

To tell the truth, coming from the doctrine of your denomination, the term "I agree" scares the deepest essence out of me if I ever did agree. In addition to being dead wrong about election, predestination, and God's sovereignty, your doctrine teaches a off the wall Gospel.

Ad hominem and question begging rolled into one. I'm no fan of the SDA but you are out of line.

So here is a typical Arminian free will salvation experience.
"My, its a warm spring day. The sky is blue, the birds are chirping, the sun is shinning, what a great day to become saved."

What a steaming pile. Unworthy of any response but that.

I notice you have no understanding of God's nature in sovereignty and the free will of man. To address your last statement in that quote, God is not obligated to tell you why He chose Person A over Person B.

More ad hominem attacks.

That was really uncalled for, an indirect swipe to the character of those who believe that God is sovereign. I will congratulate you on one thing though, you are the only person on this board that could get me to agree with Rippon. Before you debate Godly Christians, do it from a basis of doctrine or denomination that believes the Bible is the Word of God.

Your total post was anything but godly, biblically correct and uncalled for.

 

[The Biblicist]

He elected to save, adopt, sanctify whosoever believes.

That is patently false! Election is "TO" salvation not salvation "TO" election as you are clearly teaching (2 Thes. 2:13).

He predetermined to do this, for both Jew and non-Jew, from the beginning of time.

- foreknowledge and predestination are CONSEQUENES of "HIS PURPOSE" (Rom. 8:28 "according to HIs purpose" He works all things) not vice versa as you are clearly teaching. The order is spelled out in Romans 8:28-31. Purpose precedes and is the source of all that follows verse 28. Just like a blueprint is the source of all that follows in building a house. The house builder forknows every door, every aspect of the house beause of the blueprint/design and thus every thing built is predestinated "according to His purpose." The same is true of election (Eph. 1:4-11) note the "according to" repeated in Ephesians 1:5-11 and it NEVER teaches the order you are giving. YOU ARE REVERSING the Biblical order and must to defend your false ideas.

The parable of the wedding banquet lays this out very clearly. He invited the Jews first and then the Gentiles.

First doctrine is not established by parables especially when you have just perverted plain explicit teaching of Scripture.

Second, No one invites anyone until they first purpose to do so. This purpose is seen in that there was already a standard set for what was necessary to be accepted as a guest at this wedding.

Third, no one denies the general invitation of the gospel and that the net draws in good and bad professions of faith. However, the distinction between the good and bad is an INTERNAL distinction and the difference is due to the INTERAL work of the Holy Spirit through the gospel. The gospel itself and by itself does not make that INTERNAL distinction. Here is the crux between the general and effectual call where the gospel comes to the elect (1 Thes. 1:4) more than in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:5) but as an effectual CREATIVE COMMAND (2 Cor. 4:6) which is an INTERNAL revelation that removes inward darkness and ignorance (Eph. 4:18) effectually by the power of God producing what is essential to saving faith (Jn. 6:64-65).

Their being invited was unconditional (whosoever), but their being chosen to enter was conditioned upon their attire (faith).

Totally and absolutely false! The general call = "many were called" while the effectual call was "few are chosen." Election is "to" salvation and that salvation is "through sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth." You don't believe IN ORDER TO become the elect but you believe (1 Thes. 1:5) because you are the elect (1 Thes. 1:4). We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world THAT WE MIGHT BE holy (set apart unto God) not because faith set us apart unto God (Eph. 1:4b).

Bottom line, Romans 9:13-26 Paul anticipates objections to His teachings. His teachings mirror the Calvinist position while the anticipated objections mirror the Arminian responses to Calvinism. If Romans 9:13-26 taught the Arminian idea of nations instead of individual election then why the continuing use of personal pronouns and persons instead of using national names??? Why such anticipated objections? Why the use of the potters wheel that includes GENTILES (v. 26) if nations were the subjects?? The arminian interpetation is pure nonsense based on the very anticipated objections by Paul.

 

[Skandelon]

That is patently false! Election is "TO" salvation not salvation "TO" election as you are clearly teaching (2 Thes. 2:13).

I'm not sure how this relates to what I wrote leading me to believe you are not understanding my position.

I never argued, nor do I believe, in 'salvation to election.' I don't even know what that means.

Who is predestined? "US"
Who is "US?" Those 'in Him.'
How do we get to be 'in Him?' Through faith.
Does it say we are predetermined to have faith? No
Does it say what we (the believers) will become? Yes.

First doctrine is not established by parables

Well, that is a good thing for you since the parable obviously contradicts your system. Plus, I'm fine with the didactic texts as establishing my doctrinal stance. I've never attempted to avoid them.

The general call = "many were called" while the effectual call was "few are chosen."

Clearly, in the parable those chosen were those dressed in wedding garments. There is NOTHING about that parable which suggests an effectually calling of those chosen to enter the banquet. That is something your system clearly imposes on this text.

You don't believe IN ORDER TO become the elect

Again, you are revealing that you have yet to understand the corporate view of election as you are still debating me as if I hold to an individualistic approach.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm not sure how this relates to what I wrote leading me to believe you are not understanding my position.

I never argued, nor do I believe, in 'salvation to election.' I don't even know what that means.

It makes no difference if you believe in individual or corporate or national election as in all cases election is the cause salvation is the consequence and that is precisely what Paul means when he says we were "chosen from the beginning TO salvation" not that we were chose from the beginning BECAUSE of "belief in the truth" as you are clearly teaching.

Who is predestined?

God not only predestinated Jeremiah before he was born to be a prophet but knew him in the purpose of salvation just as he NEVER KNEW those in Matthew 7:22 in a salvational purpose. He knew us personally and individually according according to election before we were born (Rom. 9:11; Eph. 1:4; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13).

"US"

The purpose of election occured before the world began, before we were born, before we did either good or evil and is the CAUSE of our salvation as we were chosen in him TO salvation. This salvation when it occurred in time was THROUGH the setting apart by the Spirit (regeneration) and belief of the truth (conversion). Don't confuse the participles and don't change them from "to" to "because of" or from "through" to "because of" and that is precisely what your soteriology demands.

Who is "US?" Those 'in Him.'

"Us" is not all humans and the choice of which humans were placed in him occured before any were born and that choice was not predetermined by foreseen actions (Psa. 14:2-3; Rom. 9:11) but in spite of foreknown actions (Rom. 3:10-19) on the basis God's purpose of "grace" (Rom. 9:11b) not our actions (2 Tim. 1:7). Therefore, "us" are those "them he also" carried out each aspect of His purpose in Romans 8:28 in Romans 8:29-30 or the elect (Rom. 8:32).

How do we get to be 'in Him?' Through faith.

Absolutely completely false! We were "chosen in him" and there was no faith existent at the time we were placed in Him by the Father's choice before the world began! There was no foreseen faith (Psa. 14:2-3). Faith is consequence of "sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13b) in time which is a consequence of first chosen in him from the beginning "TO" salvation not "BECAUSE OF" salvation as you are interpeting this text and election.

Does it say we are predetermined to have faith? No

It most certainly does teach that. Purpose precedes foreknowledge in Romans 8:28-29 because the purpose gives the basis to know God's future actions in regard to redemption. God has purposed to conform those chosen in Him to the image of Christ and that includes faith. He is the AUTHOR of that faith (Heb. 12:2) and he is speaking of the faith in Hebrews 11:6 whereby one first comes to God. That kind of faith is a product of God's grace (Rom. 4:16) not our human nature.

Well, that is a good thing for you since the parable obviously contradicts your system.

The only thing it contradicts is YOUR INTERPRETATION of that parable which is an erroneous interpetation.

Clearly, in the parable those chosen were those dressed in wedding garments. There is NOTHING about that parable which suggests an effectually calling of those chosen to enter the banquet. That is something your system clearly imposes on this text.

The order is spelled out in 2 Thessaloians 2:13. First choice in him TO salvation, second the means to obtain that goal "through sanctification of the Spirit AND third belief of the truth. God has predestinated the means as well as the persons of salvation.

 

[Yeshua1]

we keep coming back tot he basic question on what did God cause His election to be based upon?

God choosing of us, or us choosing of Him first?

 

[webdog]

we keep coming back tot he basic question on what did God cause His election to be based upon?

God choosing of us, or us choosing of Him first?

...and has been said repeatedly, that is a false dichotomy.

 

[Yeshua1]

...and has been said repeatedly, that is a false dichotomy.

The predestination of the saints is either based upon the Will of God getting done, or else by God permitting for the will of man to strat the process, then God steps in to complete it!

 

[Revmitchell]

What is "strat the process"?

 

[Winman]

Absolutely completely false! We were "chosen in him" and there was no faith existent at the time we were placed in Him by the Father's choice before the world began! There was no foreseen faith (Psa. 14:2-3). Faith is consequence of "sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13b) in time which is a consequence of first chosen in him from the beginning "TO" salvation not "BECAUSE OF" salvation as you are interpeting this text and election.

The part of your statement I bolded is absolutely false. We were not placed "in him" before the world began.

You are correct, we did not exist when God chose us, and neither did our faith, but God in his foreknowledge saw who would believe in time and chose us, seeing us "in him". No person is "in Christ" or "in him" until they believe in time. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Paul said Adronicus and Junia were "in Christ before me". Paul was not in Christ before the foundation of the world as you argue, Paul was in Christ in time when he believed on Jesus.

Then how were we chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKNOWLEDGE. We were not in Christ before the foundation of the world, but God foresaw those persons who believed on Jesus and were placed "in him" in time before the foundation of the world and elected or chose those persons.

No one was "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. Paul refutes this false view of yours in Romans 16:7.

 

[Yeshua1]

The part of your statement I bolded is absolutely false. We were not placed "in him" before the world began.

You are correct, we did not exist when God chose us, and neither did our faith, but God in his foreknowledge saw who would believe in time and chose us, seeing us "in him". No person is "in Christ" or "in him" until they believe in time. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Paul said Adronicus and Junia were "in Christ before me". Paul was not in Christ before the foundation of the world as you argue, Paul was in Christ in time when he believed on Jesus.

Then how were we chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKNOWLEDGE. We were not in Christ before the foundation of the world, but God foresaw those persons who believed on Jesus and were placed "in him" in time before the foundation of the world and elected or chose those persons.

No one was "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. Paul refutes this false view of yours in Romans 16:7.

Acts 3:20 and he may send Jesus Christ, who was foreordained for you, (DBY)

Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your council foreordained to happen. (WEB ASV)

Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained 'to be' conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: (ASV)

Romans 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (ASV)

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory, (WEB ASV YLT)

Ephesians 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (ASV YLT)

Ephesians 1:11 in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will; (WEB ASV YLT)

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (KJV
looks like His views are biblical, while yours are not in this regard!

 

[Winman]

Acts 3:20 and he may send Jesus Christ, who was foreordained for you, (DBY)

Acts 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your council foreordained to happen. (WEB ASV)

Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained 'to be' conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: (ASV)

Romans 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (ASV)

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory, (WEB ASV YLT)

Ephesians 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (ASV YLT)

Ephesians 1:11 in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will; (WEB ASV YLT)

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (KJV
looks like His views are biblical, while yours are not in this regard!

Nice copy and paste;

http://bibleapps.com/f/foreordained.htm

None of these scriptures addresses the issue at hand.

No one is arguing that God did not choose his elected and predestine them before the foundation of the world.

But God did not place us "in him" (Jesus) before the foundation of the world as Biblicist claimed. A man is placed "in him" in time when he believes on Jesus. This is proved by Romans 16:7 when Paul said both Adronicus and Junia were in Christ BEFORE ME.

If men are placed in Christ in time when they believe (and they are), then how did God choose them "in him" before the foundation of the world? The answer is simple (and scriptural), FOREKNOWLEDGE. God foreknew all who would believe on Jesus in time and be placed in him, and chose these persons.

All that other scripture is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

It is nice to see you quote scripture for once. Now we've just got to get you to believe it. :thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

The part of your statement I bolded is absolutely false. We were not placed "in him" before the world began.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Paul said Adronicus and Junia were "in Christ before me". Paul was not in Christ before the foundation of the world as you argue, Paul was in Christ in time when he believed on Jesus.

Someone needs to teach you the abc's!! We were indeed chosen "IN HIM before the world began" according to God's Purpose. We were "created in him" at regeneration (Eph. 2:10). We were baptized "in Christ" at the point of baptism. You simply do not understand there are several ways a person is "in Christ" other than by faith (justification) or by regeneration (Eph. 2:10) or by baptism or by eternal purpose. The Bible teaches seven different ways a person is "in Christ" besides "spiritual union" or regeneration.

At least attempt to see the distinction between being "created in Christ" through regeneration (spiritual union) and faith in Christ (justification) and legal or positional union??

1. We were PURPOSED in him before the world began - Eph. 1:4
2. We were CREATED in him at regeneration - Eph. 2:10
3. We are POSITIONALLY in him Iby faith) presently in heaven - Eph. 2:7
4. We are FIGURATIVELY in him by baptism - Gal. 3:27
5. We are EXPERIENTIALLY in him by filling of the Spirit - Col. 2:7
6. We are METAPHORICALLY in him by church membership - 1 Cor. 12:27
7. We were REPRESENTATIVELY in him while on earth - Rom. 5:15-19

Then how were we chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKNOWLEDGE. We were not in Christ before the foundation of the world, but God foresaw those persons who believed on Jesus and were placed "in him" in time before the foundation of the world and elected or chose those persons.

Go learn the abc's

 

[Skandelon]

It makes no difference if you believe in individual or corporate or national election

It is very difficult for some to ever really understand a non-individualistic (corporate) interpretation of this issue once they have adopted a system of belief like yours, as is evidenced by your response to me. All I can say is to study up on it with an objective mind and once you understand what I am saying come back and I'll be happy to discuss it with you cordially.

:wavey:

 

[Yeshua1]

Someone needs to teach you the abc's!! We were indeed chosen "IN HIM before the world began" according to God's Purpose. We were "created in him" at regeneration (Eph. 2:10). We were baptized "in Christ" at the point of baptism. You simply do not understand there are several ways a person is "in Christ" other than by faith (justification) or by regeneration (Eph. 2:10) or by baptism or by eternal purpose. The Bible teaches seven different ways a person is "in Christ" besides "spiritual union" or regeneration.

At least attempt to see the distinction between being "created in Christ" through regeneration (spiritual union) and faith in Christ (justification) and legal or positional union??

1. We were PURPOSED in him before the world began - Eph. 1:4
2. We were CREATED in him at regeneration - Eph. 2:10
3. We are POSITIONALLY in him Iby faith) presently in heaven - Eph. 2:7
4. We are FIGURATIVELY in him by baptism - Gal. 3:27
5. We are EXPERIENTIALLY in him by filling of the Spirit - Col. 2:7
6. We are METAPHORICALLY in him by church membership - 1 Cor. 12:27
7. We were REPRESENTATIVELY in him while on earth - Rom. 5:15-19

Then how were we chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKNOWLEDGE. We were not in Christ before the foundation of the world, but God foresaw those persons who believed on Jesus and were placed "in him" in time before the foundation of the world and elected or chose those persons.

Go learn the abc's

what would he do with the verse in Acts that tell us as many as were appointed beforehand to receive jesus received Him as their messiah, so how can that be based upon foreknowledge as he takes it as being?