Featured What Are main Differences between Arms and Non cals?

Notice that I do not make the argument that "God is unfair" - rather I make the case that God "sovereignly chose" the free will system of "whosoever will" as outlined above - according to HIS Word.

Ok so now - once again - "with feeling" -- :godisgood:

Notice that I do not make the argument that "God is unfair" - rather I make the case that God "sovereignly chose" the free will system of "whosoever will" as outlined above - according to HIS Word.

I don't complain about His sovereign right to make that choice. I am simply Glad that the Bible says - He did.

in Christ,

Bob

 

He elected to save, adopt, sanctify whosoever believes. He predetermined to do this, for both Jew and non-Jew, from the beginning of time.

The parable of the wedding banquet lays this out very clearly. He invited the Jews first and then the Gentiles. Those elected to enter were those appropriately dressed in wedding garments (righteousness through faith in Christ). Their being invited was unconditional (whosoever), but their being chosen to enter was conditioned upon their attire (faith).

"Many are called, few are chosen."

 

Very well said even from a recovering Calvinist. :laugh:

 

Skan, how is this different from the foreseen faith view that teaches the same sort of election?

 

Because the 'foreseen faith' view makes the same basic hermeneutical error of Calvinism by individualizing the text. For example, God foresaw Joe's response and based on what he foresaw God made a choice. That is not what we believe is the intent of author.

The author, according to our view, intends to say that God has planned all along to sanctify, adopt and save whosoever is in Christ, through faith, regardless of their nationality. The Jews, as a corporate body, were taught to be the 'elect' and 'predestinated' ones during that time and Paul was debunking that concept by teaching that God has ALWAYS planned to save all who are in Christ, even the non-Jew.

 

This quote from a noted scholar on the subject may help:

Historically, both Calvinists and Arminians have predominantly understood election unto salvation as individual.[25] That is, each individual is elected/selected to enter into a saving relationship with God through Christ.[26] The central difference between the two views is that Calvinists see election as unconditional[27] and Arminians see election as conditional on divine foreknowledge of human faith.[28] While corporate election is not the traditional Arminian position, it is totally consistent with Arminian theology because it is a conditional election—conditional upon union with Christ through faith.[29] According to Abasciano...

 

Complete misrepesentation., not to mention you have indicted yourself as a double predestinarian with this statement and labeled God as the author of sin.

Clearly you do not understand the verse as pre faith regeneration isn't found anywhere in it (or anywhere at all for that matter). The Bible teaches life is in Christ, never prior. John 14:6 doesn't say we come to God through the Holy Spirit.

Of course He needs no help from man. This is not the same thing as Him desiring it that way. In one breathe you say He calls the shots...then proceed to tell us how He does it. Presumptuous.

No arminian I know wouldn't be able to answer those questions any different than you.

No...the Bible is crystal clear God requires a response, and given the ability to respond. Nobody has mentioned fairness here but you.

Ad hominem and question begging rolled into one. I'm no fan of the SDA but you are out of line.

What a steaming pile. Unworthy of any response but that.

More ad hominem attacks.

Your total post was anything but godly, biblically correct and uncalled for.

 

That is patently false! Election is "TO" salvation not salvation "TO" election as you are clearly teaching (2 Thes. 2:13).

- foreknowledge and predestination are CONSEQUENES of "HIS PURPOSE" (Rom. 8:28 "according to HIs purpose" He works all things) not vice versa as you are clearly teaching. The order is spelled out in Romans 8:28-31. Purpose precedes and is the source of all that follows verse 28. Just like a blueprint is the source of all that follows in building a house. The house builder forknows every door, every aspect of the house beause of the blueprint/design and thus every thing built is predestinated "according to His purpose." The same is true of election (Eph. 1:4-11) note the "according to" repeated in Ephesians 1:5-11 and it NEVER teaches the order you are giving. YOU ARE REVERSING the Biblical order and must to defend your false ideas.

First doctrine is not established by parables especially when you have just perverted plain explicit teaching of Scripture.

Second, No one invites anyone until they first purpose to do so. This purpose is seen in that there was already a standard set for what was necessary to be accepted as a guest at this wedding.

Third, no one denies the general invitation of the gospel and that the net draws in good and bad professions of faith. However, the distinction between the good and bad is an INTERNAL distinction and the difference is due to the INTERAL work of the Holy Spirit through the gospel. The gospel itself and by itself does not make that INTERNAL distinction. Here is the crux between the general and effectual call where the gospel comes to the elect (1 Thes. 1:4) more than in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:5) but as an effectual CREATIVE COMMAND (2 Cor. 4:6) which is an INTERNAL revelation that removes inward darkness and ignorance (Eph. 4:18) effectually by the power of God producing what is essential to saving faith (Jn. 6:64-65).

Totally and absolutely false! The general call = "many were called" while the effectual call was "few are chosen." Election is "to" salvation and that salvation is "through sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth." You don't believe IN ORDER TO become the elect but you believe (1 Thes. 1:5) because you are the elect (1 Thes. 1:4). We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world THAT WE MIGHT BE holy (set apart unto God) not because faith set us apart unto God (Eph. 1:4b).

Bottom line, Romans 9:13-26 Paul anticipates objections to His teachings. His teachings mirror the Calvinist position while the anticipated objections mirror the Arminian responses to Calvinism. If Romans 9:13-26 taught the Arminian idea of nations instead of individual election then why the continuing use of personal pronouns and persons instead of using national names??? Why such anticipated objections? Why the use of the potters wheel that includes GENTILES (v. 26) if nations were the subjects?? The arminian interpetation is pure nonsense based on the very anticipated objections by Paul.

 

I'm not sure how this relates to what I wrote leading me to believe you are not understanding my position.

I never argued, nor do I believe, in 'salvation to election.' I don't even know what that means.

Who is predestined? "US"
Who is "US?" Those 'in Him.'
How do we get to be 'in Him?' Through faith.
Does it say we are predetermined to have faith? No
Does it say what we (the believers) will become? Yes.

Well, that is a good thing for you since the parable obviously contradicts your system. Plus, I'm fine with the didactic texts as establishing my doctrinal stance. I've never attempted to avoid them.

Clearly, in the parable those chosen were those dressed in wedding garments. There is NOTHING about that parable which suggests an effectually calling of those chosen to enter the banquet. That is something your system clearly imposes on this text.

Again, you are revealing that you have yet to understand the corporate view of election as you are still debating me as if I hold to an individualistic approach.

 

It makes no difference if you believe in individual or corporate or national election as in all cases election is the cause salvation is the consequence and that is precisely what Paul means when he says we were "chosen from the beginning TO salvation" not that we were chose from the beginning BECAUSE of "belief in the truth" as you are clearly teaching.

God not only predestinated Jeremiah before he was born to be a prophet but knew him in the purpose of salvation just as he NEVER KNEW those in Matthew 7:22 in a salvational purpose. He knew us personally and individually according according to election before we were born (Rom. 9:11; Eph. 1:4; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13).

The purpose of election occured before the world began, before we were born, before we did either good or evil and is the CAUSE of our salvation as we were chosen in him TO salvation. This salvation when it occurred in time was THROUGH the setting apart by the Spirit (regeneration) and belief of the truth (conversion). Don't confuse the participles and don't change them from "to" to "because of" or from "through" to "because of" and that is precisely what your soteriology demands.

"Us" is not all humans and the choice of which humans were placed in him occured before any were born and that choice was not predetermined by foreseen actions (Psa. 14:2-3; Rom. 9:11) but in spite of foreknown actions (Rom. 3:10-19) on the basis God's purpose of "grace" (Rom. 9:11b) not our actions (2 Tim. 1:7). Therefore, "us" are those "them he also" carried out each aspect of His purpose in Romans 8:28 in Romans 8:29-30 or the elect (Rom. 8:32).

Absolutely completely false! We were "chosen in him" and there was no faith existent at the time we were placed in Him by the Father's choice before the world began! There was no foreseen faith (Psa. 14:2-3). Faith is consequence of "sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13b) in time which is a consequence of first chosen in him from the beginning "TO" salvation not "BECAUSE OF" salvation as you are interpeting this text and election.

It most certainly does teach that. Purpose precedes foreknowledge in Romans 8:28-29 because the purpose gives the basis to know God's future actions in regard to redemption. God has purposed to conform those chosen in Him to the image of Christ and that includes faith. He is the AUTHOR of that faith (Heb. 12:2) and he is speaking of the faith in Hebrews 11:6 whereby one first comes to God. That kind of faith is a product of God's grace (Rom. 4:16) not our human nature.

The only thing it contradicts is YOUR INTERPRETATION of that parable which is an erroneous interpetation.

The order is spelled out in 2 Thessaloians 2:13. First choice in him TO salvation, second the means to obtain that goal "through sanctification of the Spirit AND third belief of the truth. God has predestinated the means as well as the persons of salvation.

 

...and has been said repeatedly, that is a false dichotomy.

 

What is "strat the process"?

 

The part of your statement I bolded is absolutely false. We were not placed "in him" before the world began.

You are correct, we did not exist when God chose us, and neither did our faith, but God in his foreknowledge saw who would believe in time and chose us, seeing us "in him". No person is "in Christ" or "in him" until they believe in time. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Paul said Adronicus and Junia were "in Christ before me". Paul was not in Christ before the foundation of the world as you argue, Paul was in Christ in time when he believed on Jesus.

Then how were we chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKNOWLEDGE. We were not in Christ before the foundation of the world, but God foresaw those persons who believed on Jesus and were placed "in him" in time before the foundation of the world and elected or chose those persons.

No one was "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. Paul refutes this false view of yours in Romans 16:7.

 

Nice copy and paste;

http://bibleapps.com/f/foreordained.htm

None of these scriptures addresses the issue at hand.

No one is arguing that God did not choose his elected and predestine them before the foundation of the world.

But God did not place us "in him" (Jesus) before the foundation of the world as Biblicist claimed. A man is placed "in him" in time when he believes on Jesus. This is proved by Romans 16:7 when Paul said both Adronicus and Junia were in Christ BEFORE ME.

If men are placed in Christ in time when they believe (and they are), then how did God choose them "in him" before the foundation of the world? The answer is simple (and scriptural), FOREKNOWLEDGE. God foreknew all who would believe on Jesus in time and be placed in him, and chose these persons.

All that other scripture is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

It is nice to see you quote scripture for once. Now we've just got to get you to believe it. :thumbsup:

 

Someone needs to teach you the abc's!! We were indeed chosen "IN HIM before the world began" according to God's Purpose. We were "created in him" at regeneration (Eph. 2:10). We were baptized "in Christ" at the point of baptism. You simply do not understand there are several ways a person is "in Christ" other than by faith (justification) or by regeneration (Eph. 2:10) or by baptism or by eternal purpose. The Bible teaches seven different ways a person is "in Christ" besides "spiritual union" or regeneration.

At least attempt to see the distinction between being "created in Christ" through regeneration (spiritual union) and faith in Christ (justification) and legal or positional union??

1. We were PURPOSED in him before the world began - Eph. 1:4
2. We were CREATED in him at regeneration - Eph. 2:10
3. We are POSITIONALLY in him Iby faith) presently in heaven - Eph. 2:7
4. We are FIGURATIVELY in him by baptism - Gal. 3:27
5. We are EXPERIENTIALLY in him by filling of the Spirit - Col. 2:7
6. We are METAPHORICALLY in him by church membership - 1 Cor. 12:27
7. We were REPRESENTATIVELY in him while on earth - Rom. 5:15-19

Then how were we chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKNOWLEDGE. We were not in Christ before the foundation of the world, but God foresaw those persons who believed on Jesus and were placed "in him" in time before the foundation of the world and elected or chose those persons.

Go learn the abc's

 

It is very difficult for some to ever really understand a non-individualistic (corporate) interpretation of this issue once they have adopted a system of belief like yours, as is evidenced by your response to me. All I can say is to study up on it with an objective mind and once you understand what I am saying come back and I'll be happy to discuss it with you cordially.

:wavey: