What Are main Differences between Arms and Non cals?

[Skandelon]

we keep coming back tot he basic question on what did God cause His election to be based upon?

God choosing of us, or us choosing of Him first?

Ok, let me try this approach...

Most of you would affirm that the nation of Israel was elected by God, correct?

Do you believe that to mean that every Israelite during the OT period was certainly saved, or do you believe that God elected for Israel to receive His special revelation, by which they may enter covenant with Him and thus individually be saved?

Another way to ask the same question: What do you think it means when Paul spoke of Israel being cut off from the vine while the Gentiles were grafted into the vine? Is being in the vine representative of being 'elect corporately' or individually? Expound...if you dare

 

[Winman]

Someone needs to teach you the abc's!! We were indeed chosen "IN HIM before the world began" according to God's Purpose.

That is not what you said before, you are changing your story. You said;

Absolutely completely false! We were "chosen in him" and there was no faith existent at the time we were placed in Him by the Father's choice before the world began! There was no foreseen faith (Psa. 14:2-3). Faith is consequence of "sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13b) in time which is a consequence of first chosen in him from the beginning "TO" salvation not "BECAUSE OF" salvation as you are interpeting this text and election.

The part I bolded is complete falsehood. The scriptures do not say or teach that we were placed "in him" by the Father's choice before the world began. The scriptures say were were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world. That is a very different thing altogether.

We know from Romans 16:7 that Paul was not "in Christ" until he believed in time. He was placed in Christ AFTER both Andronicus and Junia. This shows a person is placed in Christ in time when they actually believe.

So how did God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world? Simple, foreknowledge. God saw those who would believe on Jesus and be placed in him in time, and chose these persons. But nowhere do the scriptures say God chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world as you falsely claim.

We were "created in him" at regeneration (Eph. 2:10). We were baptized "in Christ" at the point of baptism. You simply do not understand there are several ways a person is "in Christ" other than by faith (justification) or by regeneration (Eph. 2:10) or by baptism or by eternal purpose. The Bible teaches seven different ways a person is "in Christ" besides "spiritual union" or regeneration.

I'll tell you what I understand, I understand when someone has been caught perverting scripture red-handed and is now trying to talk his way out of it.

At least attempt to see the distinction between being "created in Christ" through regeneration (spiritual union) and faith in Christ (justification) and legal or positional union??

Oh, I bet you'd love for me to see things your way. Sorry.

1. We were PURPOSED in him before the world began - Eph. 1:4
2. We were CREATED in him at regeneration - Eph. 2:10
3. We are POSITIONALLY in him Iby faith) presently in heaven - Eph. 2:7
4. We are FIGURATIVELY in him by baptism - Gal. 3:27
5. We are EXPERIENTIALLY in him by filling of the Spirit - Col. 2:7
6. We are METAPHORICALLY in him by church membership - 1 Cor. 12:27
7. We were REPRESENTATIVELY in him while on earth - Rom. 5:15-19



Go learn the abc's

Go learn the scriptures.

 

[Yeshua1]

Weare ableto come to Chrsit due/by the truth of God election beforehand of us, and we dot not become elected by god after receive Jesus, but due to His election already of us!

 

[Winman]

Weare ableto come to Chrsit due/by the truth of God election beforehand of us, and we dot not become elected by god after receive Jesus, but due to His election already of us!

What are you talking about? How do you know you are one of the elect? Did you see your name on a list somewhere? Did Jesus appear to you like he did to Paul and tell you you were one of the fortunate elect persons?

If Limited Atonement is true, then you have no way whatsoever to know if you are elect. Just because you "act" like a Christian does not make you one, the tares look just like the wheat.

You don't have a clue if you are elect or not, you are not fooling anyone.

 

[Herald]

Because the 'foreseen faith' view makes the same basic hermeneutical error of Calvinism by individualizing the text. For example, God foresaw Joe's response and based on what he foresaw God made a choice. That is not what we believe is the intent of author.

The author, according to our view, intends to say that God has planned all along to sanctify, adopt and save whosoever is in Christ, through faith, regardless of their nationality. The Jews, as a corporate body, were taught to be the 'elect' and 'predestinated' ones during that time and Paul was debunking that concept by teaching that God has ALWAYS planned to save all who are in Christ, even the non-Jew.

Skan,

You are explaining a difference without a distinction. God is in the business of adding to His one called out people, but he does so based on what He has decreed from before the foundation of the earth (Eph. 1:6). God elects individuals. To be part of a larger group (the Church)? Certainly. But one sinner at a time whom He elects personally.

 

[BobRyan]

we keep coming back tot he basic question on what did God cause His election to be based upon?

God choosing of us, or us choosing of Him first?

God's sovereign decision in favor of Free will instead of robotism.

God is the one that makes the rules -- not Calvin.

thus "Whosoever Will" is God's system - not Calvin's.

"I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL Come in" Rev 3 -- is God's sovereignly chosen system - not Calvin's.

"I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32 - is God's sovereignly ordained system - not Calvin's.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" is a result that can happen in God's sovereignly chosen system - not Calvin's.

"God is NOT partial" Rom 2:11 is the rule in God's sovereignly chosen system - not Calvin's.

'God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3 is the rule in God's sovereignly chosen system - not Calvin's.

"God sent His Son to be the Savior of the World" 1John 4 is the context for God's sovereignly chosen system - not Calvin's.

He sent His Son "to be the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2 fits perfectly in God's sovereignly chosen system - not Calvin's.

"Whom He FOREKNEW He predestined" Romans 8 fits perfectly in God's sovereignly chosen system - not Calvin's.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Skandelon]

Skan,

You are explaining a difference without a distinction.

Actually, I believe you simply do not understand the difference thus are not willing to acknowledge the distinction. There are thousands of scholars who hold to this view and who equally oppose the foresight faith view. Do you believe they all are simply imagining the difference? Or could it be that you haven't objectively considered this perspective with an open mind?

Trust me when I say that there is a VERY clear distinction between my view and the individualistic foresight faith view. If you want to engage my view you will need to show me that you have come to understand it first...otherwise you will be debating a straw man, not me.

 

[Herald]

Actually, I believe you simply do not understand the difference thus are not willing to acknowledge the distinction.

This sentence makes no sense. If I do not understand it how am I not willing to acknowledge it? Understanding must precede acknowledgement.

Actually I do understand it. I just disagree with it.

There are thousands of scholars who hold to this view and who equally oppose the foresight faith view. Do you believe they all are simply imagining the difference? Or could it be that you haven't objectively considered this perspective with an open mind?

Am I supposed to be impressed by "thousands of scholars"? That sounds like a marketing gimmick.

Are they imagining the difference? I have no idea. Ask them. Have I objectively considered the perspective with an open mind? No. I have objectively considered it with a presupposition. We all have our presuppositions. I considered it and rejected.

Trust me when I say that there is a VERY clear distinction between my view and the individualistic foresight faith view. If you want to engage my view you will need to show me that you have come to understand it first...otherwise you will be debating a straw man, not me.

You will forgive me if I do not trust you when it comes to doctrine. We agree on so very little that there is no trust. I do not have to pass your litmus test of understanding in order to engage in debate. Your requirement to do so is nothing short of hubris.

 

[preacher4truth]

Am I supposed to be impressed by "thousands of scholars"? That sounds like a marketing gimmick.

You will forgive me if I do not trust you when it comes to doctrine. We agree on so very little that there is no trust. I do not have to pass your litmus test of understanding in order to engage in debate. Your requirement to do so is nothing short of hubris.

You're exactly correct, since when have 'numbers' and 'thousands agree' ever meant truth. That is not the test, Bible is, not extra-biblical sources interpreted subjectively. It's actually shameful to use this source as a gauge of what is 'true'. And on the hubris tied to his requirements you're correct again.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is not what you said before, you are changing your story. You said;



The part I bolded is complete falsehood. The scriptures do not say or teach that we were placed "in him" by the Father's choice before the world began. The scriptures say were were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world. That is a very different thing altogether.

We know from Romans 16:7 that Paul was not "in Christ" until he believed in time. He was placed in Christ AFTER both Andronicus and Junia. This shows a person is placed in Christ in time when they actually believe.

So how did God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world? Simple, foreknowledge. God saw those who would believe on Jesus and be placed in him in time, and chose these persons. But nowhere do the scriptures say God chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world as you falsely claim.



I'll tell you what I understand, I understand when someone has been caught perverting scripture red-handed and is now trying to talk his way out of it.



Oh, I bet you'd love for me to see things your way. Sorry.



Go learn the scriptures.

The discussion between us is amusing! You rant and rave with any Biblical facts and then rant and rave toward Biblical facts presented to you. There is no Biblical substance in your discussions but only empty rant and raves that merely assert silly unsubstantiated ideas that have no Biblical basis. No sense in discussing with you unless we want to talk about feelings, rants and raves.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is very difficult for some to ever really understand a non-individualistic (corporate) interpretation of this issue once they have adopted a system of belief like yours, as is evidenced by your response to me. All I can say is to study up on it with an objective mind and once you understand what I am saying come back and I'll be happy to discuss it with you cordially.

:wavey:

You simply treat the texts in corporate fashion rather than in an individualistic fashion but your assertions about faith and salvation are the same - foreseen faith or election based upon conversion rather than conversion based upon election. If I must, I will go back and quote your statements concerning the relationship between election and faith and prove my point by your own words! Do I really have to do that? So let's get off your high and mighty lofty attitude because it makes no difference whether you choose to deal with election in a corporate fashion or a national fashion or an individual fashion it still comes down to only two possible choices when defining the relationship between election and conversion! Either election is "TO" salvation (conversion) or election is BECAUSE of salvation (conversion) no other choice exists regardless of how you treat the subject of election in regard to salvation.

 

[Winman]

The discussion between us is amusing! You rant and rave with any Biblical facts and then rant and rave toward Biblical facts presented to you. There is no Biblical substance in your discussions but only empty rant and raves that merely assert silly unsubstantiated ideas that have no Biblical basis. No sense in discussing with you unless we want to talk about feelings, rants and raves.

It is you that rants and raves, I presented Romans 16:7 which proves a person is placed "in Christ" in time when they actually believe that completely refutes your false doctrine.

Nobody is fooled, not even your fellow Calvinists.

 

[Winman]

Actually, I believe you simply do not understand the difference thus are not willing to acknowledge the distinction. There are thousands of scholars who hold to this view and who equally oppose the foresight faith view. Do you believe they all are simply imagining the difference? Or could it be that you haven't objectively considered this perspective with an open mind?

Trust me when I say that there is a VERY clear distinction between my view and the individualistic foresight faith view. If you want to engage my view you will need to show me that you have come to understand it first...otherwise you will be debating a straw man, not me.

Skan, you probably think I do not understand your view, but I understand exactly what you and Van believe, but I believe the scriptures do show an individual election and that God foresees who will believe in time.

Examples of this are Nathanael in John chapter 1 where Jesus "saw Nathanael coming to him" and the prodigal son in Luke 15 where the father saw the young man while he was still a great ways off. I believe both of these are figures or pictures of God's foreknowledge in foreseeing who would come to Jesus in faith.

Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

You may not agree this is a figure of God's foreknowledge in foreseeing who will come in faith, but I believe it is.

Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

Again, you may not agree that this is a figure of God's foreknowledge in foreseeing who will come in faith, but I believe it is.

This is why I believe in the foresight of faith view. And in both these examples it is an individual who is foreseen.

But I understand the corporate view as well, and I believe this is also true.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is you that rants and raves, I presented Romans 16:7 which proves a person is placed "in Christ" in time when they actually believe that completely refutes your false doctrine.

Nobody is fooled, not even your fellow Calvinists.

I presented seven different Scriptures that prove that one must correctly understand the immediate context to discern in what sense being "in Christ" is being referred to! If you cannot understand that being in Christ by regeneration/spiritual union is one thing and being in Christ by justification or legal union is quite another thing than I cannot help you. If you cannot understand that being "created in Christ" is something different than being "chosen in him before the world began" than I cannot help you. If you cannot understand that walking "in him" is different than being "created in" him then I cannot help you.

What you have done is simply taken one aspect of a many sided truth and attempted to deny there are any different aspects of being "in Christ." If you want to believe that in spite of SEVEN different scriptures I gave you then you can't be helped.

 

[Winman]

I presented seven different Scriptures that prove that one must correctly understand the immediate context to discern in what sense being "in Christ" is being referred to! If you cannot understand that being in Christ by regeneration/spiritual union is one thing and being in Christ by justification or legal union is quite another thing than I cannot help you. If you cannot understand that being "created in Christ" is something different than being "chosen in him before the world began" than I cannot help you. If you cannot understand that walking "in him" is different than being "created in" him then I cannot help you.

What you have done is simply taken one aspect of a many sided truth and attempted to deny there are any different aspects of being "in Christ." If you want to believe that in spite of SEVEN different scriptures I gave you then you can't be helped.

Blah, blah, blah, meaningless blather. You attempt to obfuscate. You falsely claimed that God places us "in him" before the foundation of the world. That is an utter falsehood and a perversion of scripture. It says God "chose us" in him before the foundation of the world.

At the same time, Romans 16:7 shows a person is placed in Christ in time when they believe.

So how could God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world when we are not "in him" until we believe in time? Simple, FOREKNOWLEDGE. God could foresee who would believe in time and be "in Christ" and chose them before the foundation of the world.

And we have examples or figures of foreknowledge which I showed, both Nathanael and the prodigal son.

We also have the direct statement of scripture that Jesus "knew from the beginning" who believed not, therefore he also knew who would believe from the beginning.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

I am showing scripture that demonstrates God's foreknowledge of faith, while you try to obfuscate and change the subject in an attempt to cover your falsehood and error.

I was born at night, but not last night.

 

[The Biblicist]

Blah, blah, blah, meaningless blather. You attempt to obfuscate.

You ridicule what you cannot provide a reasonable response to. You gave one text and based an entire doctrine on that one text. I gave you seven texts none of which you could respond rationally to which included your one text concept.

You falsely claimed that God places us "in him" before the foundation of the world.

.

No I did not! I said God "chose" us "in him" before the world began whereas placement in a spiritual sense has to do with being "Created in him" by regeneration in Eph. 2:10. You don't know the difference between Ephesians 1:4 and Ephesians 2:10. The first has to do with God's eternal INTENT or PURPOSE with us "in Christ" which occurred before the world began, while the latter has to do with the supernatural action in time and space of bringing us into spiritual union through regeneration. Again, neither refer to walking "in him" (Col. 2:6).

At the same time, Romans 16:7 shows a person is placed in Christ in time when they believe.

Surely you are intelligent enough to know that the former has to do with PURPOSE while the latter has to do with action. Election "in him" before the world began is "TO" salvation in time and space when regeneration actually occurs.

So how could God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world when we are not "in him" until we believe in time?

Because the former (eph. 1:4) has to do with the eternal purposed intent of God to save those chosen within the only sphere of salvation (Christ) whereas the latter has to do with the actual salvation being carried out in time and space.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

I am showing scripture that demonstrates God's foreknowledge of faith, while you try to obfuscate and change the subject in an attempt to cover your falsehood and error.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ok, let me try this approach...

Most of you would affirm that the nation of Israel was elected by God, correct?

Do you believe that to mean that every Israelite during the OT period was certainly saved, or do you believe that God elected for Israel to receive His special revelation, by which they may enter covenant with Him and thus individually be saved?

In regard to election Israel is PERSONIFIED as an indivdiual (Jacob, mine elect, etc.) because election is "to salvation" and on a national basis it means that "ALL ISRAEL" as a nation one day will be literally saved (Rom. 11:25-28).

However, in regard to individuals within the nation of Israel, election to salvation is identical with national salvation at the second coming of Christ. The "remnant" in every generation is individually elected "to salvation." So corporate versus indivdiual makes absolutely no difference as election "to salvation" has NEVER been genetic or ethnic at any time in history nor will it be in the last day when "all Israel" as a nation is saved as they too will be saved on an individual basis but in reverse to what happened at Pentecost. At Pentecost only a "remnant" was saved and Israel as a nation rejected Christ.

Another way to ask the same question: What do you think it means when Paul spoke of Israel being cut off from the vine while the Gentiles were grafted into the vine? Is being in the vine representative of being 'elect corporately' or individually? Expound...if you dare

God promised a seed from his own loins through Isaac (natural tree) equally as from among all gentile nations (wild olive tree) but both trees represent only the ethnic SPHERES from which God calls the elect. He turned away from National Israel as the sphere of his PRIMARY redemptive activity when they rejected Christ and turned to the Gentiles as the SPHERE of his primary redemptive activity. When he is finished calling out all the elect from the Gentiles (Rom. 11:25) he will cut of the gentiles as the primary sphere of redemption and return to Israel. The primary sphere has nothing with actual personal salvation as each sphere contains non-elect and elect. In each case, ALL the elect will be saved from each sphere and in regard to both national and individual election "ALL ISRAEL" will be saved at His second coming (Rom. 11:25-28).

So your distinction is really nothing but pure imagination on your part without any Biblical basis at all.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok, let me try this approach...

Most of you would affirm that the nation of Israel was elected by God, correct?

Do you believe that to mean that every Israelite during the OT period was certainly saved, or do you believe that God elected for Israel to receive His special revelation, by which they may enter covenant with Him and thus individually be saved?

Another way to ask the same question: What do you think it means when Paul spoke of Israel being cut off from the vine while the Gentiles were grafted into the vine? Is being in the vine representative of being 'elect corporately' or individually? Expound...if you dare

Good questions all.

Will be interesting to see if the Calvinists here are willing to address those points.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

You ridicule what you cannot provide a reasonable response to. You gave one text and based an entire doctrine on that one text. I gave you seven texts none of which you could respond rationally to which included your one text concept.

I don't feel a need to answer this, you are just trying to deflect.

No I did not! I said God "chose" us "in him" before the world began whereas placement in a spiritual sense has to do with being "Created in him" by regeneration in Eph. 2:10. You don't know the difference between Ephesians 1:4 and Ephesians 2:10. The first has to do with God's eternal INTENT or PURPOSE with us "in Christ" which occurred before the world began, while the latter has to do with the supernatural action in time and space of bringing us into spiritual union through regeneration. Again, neither refer to walking "in him" (Col. 2:6).

You most certainly did say God placed us in him before the world began.

Absolutely completely false! We were "chosen in him" and there was no faith existent at the time we were placed in Him by the Father's choice before the world began! There was no foreseen faith (Psa. 14:2-3). Faith is consequence of "sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13b) in time which is a consequence of first chosen in him from the beginning "TO" salvation not "BECAUSE OF" salvation as you are interpeting this text and election.

You most certainly did say the Father placed us in him before the world began, and now you are not honest enough to admit your error. Now you are simply trying to deflect and change the subject.

Surely you are intelligent enough to know that the former has to do with PURPOSE while the latter has to do with action. Election "in him" before the world began is "TO" salvation in time and space when regeneration actually occurs.

I am intelligent enough to know when someone is trying to deflect and change the subject.

Because the former (eph. 1:4) has to do with the eternal purposed intent of God to save those chosen within the only sphere of salvation (Christ) whereas the latter has to do with the actual salvation being carried out in time and space.

Again, blah, blah, blah. You got caught red-handed perverting scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't feel a need to answer this, you are just trying to deflect.

You can't and you won't because the Biblical evidence obliterates and exposes your ignorance. Here is clear evidence you care nothing about the truth but only about defending dogma at any cost.

You most certainly did say God placed us in him before the world began.

Context! of course "IN Him" before the foundation of the world does not mean "OUTSIDE of him" but is a placement in the sense of PURPOSE, BUT NOT IN THE SENSE YOU ARE ARGUING. I denied that I said the elect were placed "in him" before the world began BY HOW YOU DEFINE PLACEMENT! You are defining it in a actual spiritual sense of spiritual union and I never said we were placed in him but "CHOSEN" in him in the sense of DIVINE PURPOSE.

You don't know the difference between placement "in Christ" by DIVINE PURPOSE versus placement "in Christ" BY CREATIVE ACTION. In the former we did not exist except in the Divine mind while in the latter we did exist in time. We were placed "in him" according to divine INTENT not by divine ACTION before the world began. In time we were placed "in him" in regard to actual spiritual union. If you don't understand the difference I can't help you. I overesimated either your intelligence or honesty - both most likely.

You most certainly did say the Father placed us in him before the world began, and now you are not honest enough to admit your error. Now you are simply trying to deflect and change the subject.

The words "in him" do demand placement but not in the sense you are demanding. These words do not mean "OUTSIDE of him" but "IN him" BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN but not in any tangible or spiritual sense only in the sense of Divine PURPOSE. You are a confused human being and I believe you want to intentionally cause confusion in order to justify your rediculous interpetations.

I am intelligent enough to know when someone is trying to deflect and change the subject.

Not intelligent enough to be simply honest. The scriptures I provided expose your total ignorance and gamemanship.

Again, blah, blah, blah.

You are simply advertising not only your own IQ status but clearly advertising what kind of person you really are - you care nothing about truth only about defending your own dogma's regardless what you have to do or say.