WHAT ARE THE BASIC PROBLEMS IN LORDSHIP SALVATION?

[Dave G]

we all have sin issues to deal with even as Christians, but if we need to reach a sinless perfection state before can address sinning among leadership in a church?

At some point I'd like to see a thread about this, but for now:

I keep seeing this pattern of established "hierarchy" in God's churches in many threads on this board, and I believe that I know where it's coming from...
Where people get this idea of "leadership" in the church, I do not know, but it's not the Bible.
Perhaps many are confusing apostleship with the Lord giving the serving offices of pastors, bishops, teachers and deacons to His body ( Ephesians 4 )?

The reality of it is, that they are not "leaders" in the worldly sense.
They are humble servants who serve the body from a position of wisdom, spiritual growth and humility.
They do so from a stand point of truly caring for the growth and welfare of those that the Lord has placed within the local assembly.

Another thing that I see that people often overlook...
The Holy Spirit makes them overseers, not men ( Acts of the Apostles 20:28 ).

Therefore, God does not have "colonels", "captains", "lieutenants", "sergeants" ( clergy ) and "privates" ( lay-people ) that make up Christ's body.
That is man's way of doing things, not God's way.

Someday I hope that every believer in Jesus Christ comes to see this and identify it as the Lord does...
The doctrine of the Nicolaitains, which thing the Lord hates ( Revelation 2:6, Revelation 2:15 ).


For clarification, believers are not to have "leaders" in the secular sense.
Please see Matthew 20:20-28, Mark 10:35-45, Luke 24:22-40.
He hates when His sheep seek dominion over one another as the Gentiles do.

The reality of this is that we have one leader, and that is Christ.
As His sheep, we follow Him, not our teachers and pastors.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Romans 10:9: "if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

Repent by believing.

Repent by believing and confessing that Jesus is Lord. That's what the text says.

I will take the liberty of repeating something I wrote on another thread just before it was closed.

My understanding of 'Lordship salvation' is that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. If I will not have Him for my Lord, why should I suppose that I can have Him for my Saviour? Salvation is indeed free, but it's not cheap.

If a child is born who bears no resemblance whatsoever to its father, eyebrows tend to be raised and urgent questions asked. What then should we think of someone who claims to be born of a Holy God, but in whom there is no sign of holiness to be observed?

Here is John Owen speaking on Hebrews 6:4-6.

'Let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are 'kept by the power of God through faith.' We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place where we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak that they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.'

 

[37818]

Repent by believing and confessing that Jesus is Lord. That's what the text says.

I will take the liberty of repeating something I wrote on another thread just before it was closed.

My understanding of 'Lordship salvation' is that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. If I will not have Him for my Lord, why should I suppose that I can have Him for my Saviour? Salvation is indeed free, but it's not cheap.

If a child is born who bears no resemblance whatsoever to its father, eyebrows tend to be raised and urgent questions asked. What then should we think of someone who claims to be born of a Holy God, but in whom there is no sign of holiness to be observed?

Here is John Owen speaking on Hebrews 6:4-6.

'Let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are 'kept by the power of God through faith.' We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place where we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak that they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.'

Trusting in Jesus' Lordship alone is no guarantee, Matthew 7:21. Trusting in what one does.

 

[Reynolds]

The "If Jesus is not Lord over all, then He is lord over none" thing!

"If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord at all." He is either Lord over your life or He is not. Its pretty simple.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Trusting in Jesus' Lordship alone is no guarantee, Matthew 7:21. Trusting in what one does.

Matthew 7:21. 'Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven.' These are people who profess Christ's lordship but in their lives deny it. And He will say to them, 'Depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness"' (verse 23).

 

[Yeshua1]

At some point I'd like to see a thread about this, but for now:

I keep seeing this pattern of established "hierarchy" in God's churches in many threads on this board, and I believe that I know where it's coming from...
Where people get this idea of "leadership" in the church, I do not know, but it's not the Bible.
Perhaps many are confusing apostleship with the Lord giving the serving offices of pastors, bishops, teachers and deacons to His body ( Ephesians 4 )?

The reality of it is, that they are not "leaders" in the worldly sense.
They are humble servants who serve the body from a position of wisdom, spiritual growth and humility.
They do so from a stand point of truly caring for the growth and welfare of those that the Lord has placed within the local assembly.

Another thing that I see that people often overlook...
The Holy Spirit makes them overseers, not men ( Acts of the Apostles 20:28 ).

Therefore, God does not have "colonels", "captains", "lieutenants", "sergeants" ( clergy ) and "privates" ( lay-people ) that make up Christ's body.
That is man's way of doing things, not God's way.

Someday I hope that every believer in Jesus Christ comes to see this and identify it as the Lord does...
The doctrine of the Nicolaitains, which thing the Lord hates ( Revelation 2:6, Revelation 2:15 ).


For clarification, believers are not to have "leaders" in the secular sense.
Please see Matthew 20:20-28, Mark 10:35-45, Luke 24:22-40.
He hates when His sheep seek dominion over one another as the Gentiles do.

The reality of this is that we have one leader, and that is Christ.
As His sheep, we follow Him, not our teachers and pastors.

The Lord has established in the local assembly pastors and elders and deacons, and those persons need to have their lives conforming to the scripture guidelines! NOT to be perfect, but if a pastor starts to teach and preach that Jesus was a created being, that body needs to get him out of there quick!

 

[Yeshua1]

Repent by believing and confessing that Jesus is Lord. That's what the text says.

I will take the liberty of repeating something I wrote on another thread just before it was closed.

My understanding of 'Lordship salvation' is that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. If I will not have Him for my Lord, why should I suppose that I can have Him for my Saviour? Salvation is indeed free, but it's not cheap.

If a child is born who bears no resemblance whatsoever to its father, eyebrows tend to be raised and urgent questions asked. What then should we think of someone who claims to be born of a Holy God, but in whom there is no sign of holiness to be observed?

Here is John Owen speaking on Hebrews 6:4-6.

'Let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are 'kept by the power of God through faith.' We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place where we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak that they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.'

Think the major "problem" within LS theology is the concept of Lordship does not seem to give time for maturity, as we all growth at different rates of speed in the Image of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Trusting in Jesus' Lordship alone is no guarantee, Matthew 7:21. Trusting in what one does.

The Jesus that we believe in is called the Lord Jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

"If He is not Lord of all, He is not Lord at all." He is either Lord over your life or He is not. Its pretty simple.

From the viewpoint of God the father, Jesus is already the Lord over every Christian!

 

[Yeshua1]

Matthew 7:21. 'Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven.' These are people who profess Christ's lordship but in their lives deny it. And He will say to them, 'Depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness"' (verse 23).

Paul stated that none of us can call Jesus LORD except by the Holy Spirit!

 

[Reynolds]

From the viewpoint of God the father, Jesus is already the Lord over every Christian!

Until one submits to His Lordship, they are not a Christian!

 

[Yeshua1]

Until one submits to His Lordship, they are not a Christian!

That would be hard to define, as its all or nothing eh?

 

[Particular]

What are the unbiblical theological inconsistencies in Lordship Salvation (LS)?

Promoters of LS tend to look at other's faults while hiding their own sins in view God's command in Mathew 5:48 and accusing/judging other christians in the name of church discipline.

They tend to excuse their own sins as "unknown".

They seem to believe that it is their sin confessions which enable them to have fellowship with God. Thus they deny the faith in grace given through Christ's atonement which enables them to fellowship with God!

You may post your opinions & the hardships you had faced with the legalists. Lordship Salvationists need not answer.

Steve, you have no support here besides your own personal opinion. Second, you are brutally misunderstanding Jesus sermon on the mount, specifically Matthew 5:48.

 

[Reynolds]

That would be hard to define, as its all or nothing eh?

How much of your life do we have to give Him? 1%? 50%? 51%?

 

[Particular]

Don't give lame excuses under a pretext. And don't worry about my homework.
Stick with the OP (Snip)

Steve the onus is on you. You are avoiding what Rob has legitimately requested. I find it odd that you cannot or will not fulfill his request.
In your OP you merely state an unsubstantiated opinion. You have the responsibility to support your accusations with data.

 

[Particular]

The board has a great view of scriptures. So better keep your advice to yourself and don't criticise God's word. Caution!

??? Are you saying your opinions are God's word?

Steven, I have yet to see you post more than one verse from any place in the Bible. That method of quoting the Bible is the method cults and other non-Christians use to claim they have made a legitimate point. They never quote in context. You are abusing scripture when you quote as you do. You have to answer to God for the sloppy use of scripture that you are doing.

 

[37818]

Matthew 7:21. 'Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven.' These are people who profess Christ's lordship but in their lives deny it. And He will say to them, 'Depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness"' (verse 23).

Matthew 7:22, ". . . have we not . . ." Trusting in their deeds.

 

[37818]

The Jesus that we believe in is called the Lord Jesus!

He is both Lord and Christ. Acts of the Apostles 2:36. Persons are not saved by trusting in His Lordship and works, Matthew 7:22. But in Him being the Christ, 1 John 5:1.

 

[37818]

Paul stated that none of us can call Jesus LORD except by the Holy Spirit!

Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Steven_15]

It tends to make grace into works.

It front-loads the Gospel and gives people false assurance in a system that, if followed "religiously", guarantees eternal life based on those works... not on the grace and mercy of God that produces a change in the hearts and minds of the ones He has decided to show that grace and mercy to.

In other words, it takes the believers eyes off the grace and mercy of God through Jesus Christ, and places those eyes on their performance, not His performance on their behalf.

I agree, and I see this:

Church discipline is intended to gently call out the sinful deeds of fellow believers, in an effort to get them to examine themselves to determine whether they be in the faith.
It is intended as exhortation and admonishment that, if one is saved, they should be actively seeking to obey God, not to disobey Him.

It is done with the full knowledge that we are all broken messes, but broken messes indwelt with the Holy Spirit who can and does overcome the deeds of the flesh by His power.
See Romans 8 and Galatians 5.

Lordship Salvation seeks to place the burden of keeping the Law on the believer, not taking into account their broken condition, the fact that the flesh and spirit are at war with one another, and the fact that spiritual growth takes time.
It overcompensates by decending into legalism and promotes a culture of "they must be unsaved, or they would be obeying God more" by those who have been fooled into believing it.

Basically stated, there is a difference between Puritanism, and the Bible... which is written to those who have believed and loves on one side, and firmly corrects on the other.
For example, chastisement is real.
God's reproofs are real.

But He commands that all believers walk worthy of their calling and election.

I think you'd need to actually have a long conversation, whether in type or in person, to determine what Rob believes, Steven.
For now, I also think that you are jumping to conclusions.

Firstly, I suggest that you define "Lordship Salvation".
Next, present what you believe, from Scripture, is actually wrong with it.

In other words, it takes the believers eyes off the grace and mercy of God through Jesus Christ, and places those eyes on their performance, not His performance on their behalf.

Agree. This makes lordship salvation a heresy.

It overcompensates by decending into legalism and promotes a culture of "they must be unsaved, or they would be obeying God more" by those who have been fooled into believing it.

Thus it steals assurance of salvation and rendering all their worship joyless or a phoney joy.

For example, chastisement is real.
God's reproofs are real.

What is the purpose of chastisement and reproofs? To move christians to trust in His grace which rules them (Romans 5:21) rather than move them deeper into the moral law which produces a phoney transformation.