What CHURCH?

[Charles Meadows]

Benjamin,

That was suppose to be a joke, sort of, but not to question faith. As in the pot calling the kettle black.
Sorry if it sounded otherwise. [B/]

No offense taken.

I agree with everything you posted. Christ is definitely the rock upon which our salvation is founded.

But (for me) that doesn't change the fact that Jesus appears to be making a different sort of statement here. He congratulates Peter, says he's the rock, then talks about keys to the kingdom. The context clearly says Peter is the "petra". Yes Christ is THE ROCK for us - but evidently Jesus is using rock metaphorically here for Peter. The fact that "rock" in most other passages does refer to Jesus doesn't change this.

 

[Benjamin]

Good, but for me when Jesus calls Peter the rock, He’s saying, you have the Spirit of “faith” in and through the Deliverer and this is what the key’s to the kingdom are about. I don’t see the reasoning in building this up to divide the Church. The context throughout the hole Bible is that through “faith” in the Deliverer and being in Him we are saved.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
ituttut

I put you in the same class as WesOutwest in your ability to twist Scripture and yet never answer a question.

God’s Word is divided, not twisted. Any question I have not answered up to this post of yours, please just ask and I will explain it to you. Until you accept the words of Paul, you’ll continue to twirl, giving the impression all are twisting scripture from your point of view. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
This true for it is the Word of God, and the Church is the Only Begotten Son of God, and Peter will build his foundation on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

Do I understand you correctly when you say that the Church is the Only Begotten Son of God? I know that the Apostle Paul speaks of the Church being the Body of Jesus Christ as well as the Bride of Jesus Christ but that can't be interpreted to mean that the Church is the Son of God. Strange, very strange!

This is something we find explained in Paul’s gospel. Notice we do not pick-up with clarity the heavenly Church, the Spiritual Church of God, pinning down that the Lord is the Church until Ephesians 5:29-30, ”For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30. For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” We saw this in Ephesians 1:20-23, ”Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” It is after Christ speaks to Paul that we know these things, such as we today are placed in the heavenlies in Him.

We don’t really know this until Paul. There is distinction to be made between the earthly churches and the heavenly church, the Body of Christ that is comprised of Christians, whether in the Catholic, Baptist, Christian, Presbyterian, Methodist, others, or even those unattached to an earthly church. There are Christians in churches, and without all being in the Body of Christ Church. This church is on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians 3:10-11, ”According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

You next question is on that other church building built on the foundation of Jesus Christ.


What is the basis for you stating that: Peter will build his foundation on the foundation of Jesus Christ. I don't understand what foundation Peter is going to build. </font>[/QUOTE]Peter will build on that “foundation which is Jesus Christ the Son of God.” Matthew 16:16-19 explains, ”And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. .”

What is the foundation that church will be built upon? Peter answered Jesus and said, “You are Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God”. It is upon this foundation the church of the “kingdom is at hand” is to be built. And the gospel of John the Baptist was preached to join that church.

Jesus gave Peter the authority, power of the Holy Ghost to build His house with its corresponding gospel, to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. Will you not you not agree this is the gospel that Peter preached in Acts 2:38 to the Jews on the day of Pentecost?

Each house of the church is built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. The Holy Place and the Most Holy Place are brought together in Christ Jesus. Christian faith, ituttut.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
The Church is Christ Jesus, and Saul hated that Church for He did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, and Saul was a Holy terror against this New Church of the Jew of which Jesus said He came for, and only them.

You correctly state that Paul, prior to his conversion, hated the Church of Jesus Christ. My mistake, you said

Saul was a Holy terror against this New Church of the Jew.

I am not sure what you mean but is this the Church of which Jesus Christ stated: The gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Matthew 16:18]

Yes

My question: What Church did the Gentile Samaritans who were converted under the preaching of Jesus Christ [John, Chapter 4] belong to? </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. These with blood from Jacob, being Hebrew half-breeds or less of Israel, and were saved as were Moses, David, Solomon. Christ had not yet shed His blood and they were of the “church of the wilderness” at that time, as far as I can tell for they can fit into no other category.

This took “special handling” by Jesus in personal contact. We see this in the first “great commission” in Matthew 10:5-7, ”These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” This gospel of John the Baptist was not for the Samaritans or the Gentiles at this time, for it is to the Jew first in Jerusalem, and Judah, and all the region around Jordan, and all Israel with the exception of entering into a city of the Samaritans.
Christian faith, ituttut

 

[OldRegular]

ituttut

Just how many Gospels do you believe there were? This gospel of John the Baptist is a new one!

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
Amen Brother OldRegular. That church in the wilderness became the Church of the “kingdom” for which Jesus said He came for, as the message was for “kingdom at hand”, which John the Baptist preached. Is this the “foundation” that the Christian message is found upon?

I thought the Christian message was:

Matthew 16:16, 17
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

and

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

but what Gospel?

Mark 1:1
1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Ah Ha, I have it now, straight from Scripture, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Amen, and I see you are going by scripture. But please note it is the “beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. And in verse 2 we see the beginning, and the messenger of that gospel of the “kingdom is at hand” gospel. Verse 2, ”As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.” John the Baptist came from the “wilderness” preaching that gospel.

ituttut

This Church of the “kingdom” you talk about is a new one on me. Could you give some Scripture to support that. In the Scripture in the OP Jesus Christ talked about

My Church

and I take Him literally. </font>[/QUOTE]I also take Him literally OldRegular, while on earth and in heaven.

Matthew 3:1-6, ”In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2. And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. ”

We find this same gospel of John the Baptist, in the “beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God”. What was that Gospel? We find it in Mark 16. Please note this is the same gospel as in the “great commission” found in Mark 16. Jesus told His Apostles to pray – “Our Father ……..Thy Kingdom Come……On Earth as It Is IN Heaven……Give this day our daily bread…….For Thine is The Kingdom.” Is this prayer for today? Are we waiting on the kingdom to come? We are looking for the “Rapture”, before Tribulation comes, and then the “kingdom of Heaven” will come.

The gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God in heaven tells us today we are saved by Grace, Through Faith, without works, so it cannot be that earthly gospel in Mark 16, which the Catholic Church, and some others believe. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
Paul was persecuting that Jewish church of Pentecost, that was offered the “kingdom” that was presented to them, but His chosen people refused that “kingdom”, and Paul was part of that establishment, and evidently the greatest enemy physically persecuting Jesus Christ.

Well ituttut what happened to that Church? Jesus Christ said that He would build it and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Where is it today? Was Jesus Christ Mistaken?

I believe that church of the earthly Body of Christ church is the “kingdom church at hand” and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. This is that church in the millennium for the gates of hell will still exist. God made promises to His Nation, and He will keep those promises, and they shall have their King on this earth. The gospel of the physical earthly church is that of Jesus Christ, which was preached first by John the Baptist for the Jew.

The Body of Christ spoken of by Paul, and only Paul is spiritual. There is Jesus Christ of earth speaking to His Apostles, and Jesus Christ of Heaven speaking to His Apostle with a dispensational gospel for reconciling the world unto Himself, making it possible for the Gentile to be in the Body of Christ.

We find God ”hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in
heavenly places in Christ”, as we come Through faith by the Grace of God. This is Christ speaking from heaven.

From earth Jesus spoke of that “kingdom of heaven is at hand”. That kingdom will come to earth, and the Jew will inherit that New earth, for they were promised it.” But before this they will also inherit this “old” earth in the millennium.

So I see two churches (houses), one the Holy Place and the Holist Place. I believe these two churches built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ will become one with the coming of the New heavens, and earth. ”And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all”,” I Corinthians 15:28.

Of course we still have those Gentile Samaritans who were converted under the preaching of Jesus Christ to worry about! </font>[/QUOTE]See my previous. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Helen:
In arguing with a Roman Catholic about what Jesus meant in that passage, I decided to look up the times Rock had been used in the OLD Testament. Here is what I found, which is a very brief sampling:

Hi Helen. I enjoyed your post, and the work you put into it. It is very good. If you will, could you take a look at some further insight of what is also on the foundation of Jesus Christ, according to scripture divided?

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, with CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF as the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:19-20)

Have you noticed there is more than One foundation (or enlargement) built on “CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF as the chief cornerstone”? ”According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon”, I Corinthians 3:10; Romans 15:20, ”Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:” I believe we today are to build on that foundation that was made larger by Paul with the authority of Christ from heaven, of the foundation of the apostles and prophets, to include another building.


Jesus Christ HIMSELF is the stone, or rock, of Matthew 16:18 and parallel verses. Please take a look at some of the Scriptures the disciples, and all Jews, knew:

Snipped the contents of your verses below for no comment as they are truth without contradiction..

Genesis 49:24; Deuteronomy 32:3-4; Deuteronomy 32:15; Deuteronomy 32:18; Deuteronomy 32:30.


Those verses are from the Torah -- the first five books of our Old Testament, which are referred to by Christ and all Jews as The Law. It is very clear in The Law who the Rock is.


But let's keep going:

1 Samuel 2:2; 2 Samuel 22:32; 2 Samuel 22:47; Psalm 18 repeats these sections of 2 Samuel 22; Psalm 19:14; Psalm 28:1; Psalm 42:9; Psalm 62:1-2; Psalm 89:26; Psalm 92:15; Psalm 95:1; Psalm 144:1; Isaiah 8:13-14; Isaiah 17:10; Isaiah 26:4; Isaiah 44:8 -- You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, THERE IS NTHER ROCK; I KNOW NOT ONE.

Consistently, in the Law, the Poetry, and the Prophets, "Rock" is used to describe God. It should be noted in the Isaiah verses quoted that not only is God the Rock at that time, but that He will be (8:14) and that he is the Rock eternal (26:4). This eliminates any other "Rock" in which to trust or believe in Jewish or Christian theology. Every single one of the disciples was Jewish and had been bar mitzvahed. They KNEW their Scriptures. When Jesus declared to them, "And on this Rock I will build my church" they would have known IMMEDIATELY what He was referring to. He was identifying Himself as God, in agreement with Peter's statement of faith.

I like that. This definitely tells us that God’s covenant people the nation of Israel understood what God the Father was telling them. We must notice the heathen Gentile are not included, and in that day cannot claim any of this, or try to apply them to (me)under application of the "great commission. Leviticus 25:38-44, ” I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God. 39. And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant: 40. But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile. 41. And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return. 42. For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen. 43. Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God. 44. Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.”

I believe here we must find out what happened, for the Gentile as plainly shown all through the Old Testament, and into the New Testament , were heathen, discarded by God, seen as dogs, and were destined to be the Bondmen, and Bondmaids of the Jew on this earth, and also the New earth.

Praise God for His Mercy, and His Grace, that Through Grace that came to we Gentiles by the gospel of Paul, the One Apostle to the Gentile, we are included in the Body of
Christ, destined for the heavenlies to be with Him forever. And Peter says the Jew can now be saved just like we Gentiles. “Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved”.

I am not familiar with your posts, and don’t know if you are a follower of Paul’s heavenly gospel that Christ gave to him from heaven. But for me, I know by scripture, that until Damascus Road I was destined to be a proselyte to the Jewish faith, and gospel, and be subservient to God’s chosen people forever, while they served their God.

Christ's Church is made up of believers. Old Testament believers, too? Yes, for even Job said "I know my Redeemer lives". However, as written in Hebrews 11:39-40, they were not completed in their faith until joined with us, as New Testament believers. All together, we are the Church. The Church Saul was persecuting were those believers alive at that time.

You may not agree, but His Word will be contradictory, if we do not see the two (2) foundations in scriptures. As I believe we can see above the Gentiles would never have been able to enter the Temple, except by the Grace that came to all through Christ Jesus, and through the Spirit we come. And now we are in Christ Jesus, and He and the Father are the Temple, Revelation 21:22. Does this not denote the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place, two buildings on the foundation of the Rock, The Temple that is God?

Ephesians 2:12-22, ”That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.?

Again you perhaps do not agree, but those Jews of the Pentecostal church, and all in the Christian church will be “fitly framed together growth unto an holy temple in the Lord through the Spirit. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[OldRegular]

ituttut, the following was posted on the One Gospel thread but it responds to some of the nonsense you have presented above.

Originally posted by OldRegular:

ituttut,

The Apostle Paul writes in Romans 1: 1, 2 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

The Apostle Paul writes in Romans 1: 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Now in Romans 1:1, 2 Paul states that he is separated unto the Gospel of God which means he was set apart for the Gospel of God.

In Romans 1:9 Paul states that I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son.

Please answer the following two questions simply and directly without endless spin.

Question #1 posted by OldRegular:

1.Are you saying that the Gospel of God is different than the Gospel of God the Son?

Response to question #1 by ituttut:

What do you believe these scriptures say to you? Please look closely at what he is saying in the parentheses. The parentheses should bring your attention to what he is alluding to. To whom where promises made? We must read scripture as it is presented, and believe what Jesus said while on earth. He says He did not come for any but His own to whom the promises were made, and they are those that made a two way covenant with Their God.

Response #1 by OldRegular:

ituttut, what does the passage in question say: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

The Apostle Paul states that he is separated or set apart unto the Gospel of God. When did this happen? Obviously it happened after his conversion. Because of the statement in parenthesis you are implying that this Gospel of God was something that was in force under the Old Covenant. How in the world could Paul be set apart to something that was history? What is the passage in parenthesis telling us? What do prophets, especially the prophets of the Old Testament tell us? These prophets tell us something that is going to take place in the future. Now I realize that some dispensationalists [particularly hyper-dispensationalists] like to tell us that the Gospel of Grace was revealed only to Paul. However, this passage of Scripture clearly contradicts that error.

Now ituttut you are shuffled your feet but you never did get around to addressing what Paul means in the statement I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son. neither have you answered the question: 1.Are you saying that the Gospel of God is different than the Gospel of God the Son?

Question #2 posted by OldRegular:

2. Is Paul then stating that he preached two different Gospels?

Response to question #2 by ituttut:

Does Paul preach the “great commission” of the Jew, or the “grace commission” of God’s dispensational gospel of, ”But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement”, Romans 5:8-11. Today we come to God “Through our Lord Jesus Christ”. Once Saved Always Saved, and this was not known or preached by anyone until after Damascus Road. This is preaching of the Cross, the Christian message. Isn’t this New? Isn’t this different than any gospel you can find before Christ spoke to Paul from heaven? Can you find one thing that we must do other than to believe on His name? When we believe all things required are taken care of at that time.

Only Now is Justification activated. That message, that gospel before was for holding purposes only, for the blood of animals could not save, but only preserved until those of Old were washed with the Blood of the Lamb. We today are sealed upon belief of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only name under heaven whereby man can be saved. Our blessed Hope is Sure. I Hope He comes today, but if not it will be tomorrow for Sure. When it pleases Him, that Hope will be manifested. Christian faith, ituttut

Response #2 by OldRegular:

ituttut, there is no such thing as a “grace commission” or a “Pauline dispensation”. You state: “Today we come to God “Through our Lord Jesus Christ”. Once Saved Always Saved, and this was not known or preached by anyone until after Damascus Road. This is preaching of the Cross, the Christian message. Isn’t this New? Isn’t this different than any gospel you can find before Christ spoke to Paul from heaven? “

What does Scripture tells us:

Coming to God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [John 14:6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. We see that Jesus Christ tells us that He was the only way to the Father years before the Damascus Road experience of Paul.


Salvation by Faith: [John 3:16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.. The words of Jesus Christ spoken well before the Damascus Road experience of Paul.

[Genesis 15:6] And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.. Now Abraham lived almost 2000 years before the Damascus Road experience of Paul.

Once Saved, Always Saved: [John 10:27-30]
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Jesus Christ tells us that clearly that His sheep, the true believers, are eternally secure years well before the Damascus Road experience of Paul.

So you see ituttut that all these occurred well before “Christ spoke to Paul from heaven”.

Now we examine the so-called Great Commission as recorded in Matthew:

Matthew 28:19, 20
19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

In this passage Jesus Christ is giving instructions to His apostles before His ascension. The instructions are simple. they are to go to all nations. What is meant by all nations. Nations is the English translation of the Greek word ethnos. It occurs some 164 times in the new testament and is translated Gentiles 93 times, nations 64 times, heathen 5 times, and people 2 times. So we see that Jesus Christ was instructing His Apostles to go to the Gentiles long before the Damascus Road experience of Paul. Did He tell these Apostles to teach a false Gospel. Blasphemous! Heretical! No! He told them to to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

We need also to keep in mind that the Church at Jerusalem was dispersed before the Damascus Road experience of Paul. In fact Paul as the pharisee Saul was responsible for that dispersion. We read in Acts 8:1-4:

1. And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Now were those who were scattered abroad teaching a false Gospel, waiting for Jesus Christ to reveal the true Gospel to Paul from heaven. Blasphemous! Heretical! No! The Apostle Paul tells us that he is a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God; ... whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son. Is Paul lying or is he telling the truth?

There is only One Gospel, there has always been only One Gospel, there will always be only One Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ which, as the Apostle Paul tells us, is [Romans 1:16] the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Also, I would like to add something from the scripture talks about the rock.

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat, And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that ROCK was Christ." - 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.

Jesus Christ was already there in the Old Testament time, the saints were followed the rock which is Jesus Christ.

Verses such as this should make we Gentiles so much more humble and grateful to Christ Jesus, for did He have to do what He did for us? The above ROCK that came for only His own, saw fit to include such as me. While on earth He said He did not come for me, but by the Grace of God through Christ Jesus this all changed at Damascus Road. We outcast today can receive the free gift of salvation without ever having made covenant with Him. And now the Jew can get in on this free gift also, coming out from under the curse of the law.

Don’t know for sure if you are a Gentile like me, but aren’t you so happy in Christ that He didn’t forget us?

The defintion word for 'church' means, called out, congregation.

Interesting, during translating of 1611 Authorized Version. King James told to the translators, that he wanted word, 'congregation' changed to 'church'. He knew word 'church' actual means congrgeation - God's people.

I find very interesting referance of 'church' with two passages in the Old Testament and in the New testament:

In Genesis 32:28, when Jacob was wrestled with an angel. Angel asked him, what's name? He said, 'Jacob'. Then, an angel told him, "Thy name shall ne called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

I find there are three important keys of Genesis 32:28- 'power', 'men', 'prevailed'. It is also find refer with Matthew 16:18-19 say: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

THere are three important keys om Matthew 16:18-19- 'church', 'prevail', and 'keys'.

Let's back to Gen. 32:28 again. I understand what the angel said to Jacob. He told him, that he have a prince(Jesus), have power with God, and with people, and be successful or victory.

Same with Matt. 16:18-19. Jesus told Peter, that he(Peter) is builting on Christ's foundation(actually, Christ means that He is builting his people-believers, and the gate of hell cannot beat or victory over Christ's foundation, because Christ already give the keys to His people to spread the gospel over the world(according Matt. 28:18-20).

Word, 'keys', means or represent power. Christ already give power to his believers to spread the gospel unto the world according Matt. 28:18-20 & Acts 1:8 too.

Word, 'church' means God's people either Jew or Gentile, whosever believeth upon Jesus Christ.

Church was already existing in the Old Testament period hundreds of years before Christ born. In Acts 7:38 saying that, Moses was in the church in the wilderness. Church simple mean congregation.

Also, 1 Cor. 10:1-4 telling, that people with Moses in the wilderness were follow the rock, which rock was Jesus Christ. Church was already there long, long time before Christ told Peter of Matt. 16:18-19.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

God does love His nation Israel as this was all done for them, but they refused their King. God today is using we Gentiles to make His people jealous. But we are not in the business of coquetry as we accept His love and spread the gospel of grace through faith. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[RightFromWrong]

I agree with Helens points. I was taught this 17 years ago.

Jesus is THE ROCK the foundation.
Peter is called Petra LITTLE ROCK
Church is the body of believers.

So the Church started with Christ and all those that followed Christ were part of the church.
The church didn't start after Penticost it started with Christ !

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by richard n koustas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Christ's Church is made up of believers. Old Testament believers, too? Yes

upon this rock I will build my church.

i may be missing something here...if the 'church' includes OT saints, how can this be the same church that Jesus is going to build? </font>[/QUOTE]Good observations Richard. I believe you see what to most people is sacrilege, but if so then Paul’s gospel would certainly be that. For some reason what people call sacrilege is the dispensations of God. If God didn’t dispense His mercy and grace differently, then the world and time would have stopped long ago.

I’ll not answer directly here your question, but skip forward to Charles Meadows post of August 2. It follows immediately after this post. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I think the "rock" is pretty clearly Peter. Anything else wouldn't seem to make sense as well.

I think we as protestants have always argued AGAINST Peter being the rock because (more than anything) that would be "opening the door" to papal authority.

While the Greek words are different (petros, petra) I think Peter is still the best option. A good parallel can be seen in the midrashim, in which God tells Abraham that he is like a rock, and "on this rock I will build a nation."

I can agree with you here that this stone, and also that the Rock is seen here. I can see the foundation of the Old Testament Jewish church at (Luz) that became Bethel – ”And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not. 17. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. 18. And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19. And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. 20. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21. So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: 22. And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee”, Genesis 28:16-22.

That was then. As God moves through His dispensations we come to Matthew 21:42-44, ”Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

It is my understanding at quarries, stones then as now are “rejected” if flaws are found, and will be ground up for gravel or other uses. The best foundation has always been of solid Rock without cracks or other deficiencies. The Rock of our foundation is “without hands of man”, or anything artificial such as brick, cement, etc. Christ became the “cornerstone” supporting the two walls of a building that will grow.

I see Jesus Christ as the Cornerstone, and the message (gospel) that Peter preaches is building on that foundation this New Pentecostal church, the gospel being the “great commission” of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. But we know there is another building on that same “cornerstone”, for Paul says he will not build on another’s mans foundation of that same “cornerstone”, and comes preaching by the Grace of God that comes through Christ Jesus.

For me, I see Jesus Christ is that Rock, and that church that Peter was given authority to build thereon would withstand the Gates of Hell. We know that in millennia Hell and death are still around. But we know that church (for now) is held in abeyance. We know this for the message of that church for the nation of Israel is the “great commission”, and not the preaching of the Cross without encumbrance, of “Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we will be saved”.

Peter had that gospel of the “kingdom is at hand”, and that gospel is of an earthly gospel for Gods nation, the nation of Israel, who will serve Him, and the heathen will serve Israel. The gospel of the Grace of God has always been, but never as the gospel Christ from heaven gave to Paul. Now where from the beginning has man been able to come to Him with out a work of their own, not making them saved, but doing what God commanded and demanded of them. Christ Jesus did all of the work for us, and today He offers us that “free gift”. If we refuse it do we believe God? If we refuse to believe the gospel of Paul to the Gentile and the Jew, will there be consequences? I believe so.

So as you say we worry too much about the Catholic church, and it’s claim of uninterrupted Apostleship from Peter to the present Pope. I believe that gospel stopped for the Gentile, and the Jew that are in the Body of Christ, beginning at Damascus Road, and shown in the salvation of Cornelius. But that gospel continued for those Jews that were saved under the “great commission” preaching of Acts 2:38, and IMO most likely up to the destruction of the Temple, and Jerusalem. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
I agree with Helens points. I was taught this 17 years ago.

Jesus is THE ROCK the foundation.
Peter is called Petra LITTLE ROCK
Church is the body of believers.

So the Church started with Christ and all those that followed Christ were part of the church.
The church didn't start after Penticost it started with Christ !

I fully agree that Christ is that Rock. I believe the first mention of the earthly church has to do with the “I AM”, and confirmed by Stephen. To me that church, which then became the Pentecostal church is that church in the “wilderness as shown in Leviticus 7:38, confirmed by Stephen in Acts 7:38. I see this church is built upon the Word of God, who became Jesus the Christ, its beginning was back in Leviticus.

Then in Acts 11:16 we can for the first time see and know the Body of Christ Church as God reconciles the world unto Himself, and those belonging to this New heavenly Church are officially and properly named Christian. These Christian’s then start churches of their own, for the church in Jerusalem of Pentecost that came by John the Baptist out of the “wildness” is for the Jew. After those of Jacob had accepted their King, the Gentile would be preached to. But this did not happen. So God with His plan to also save the Gentile, began this New church on the same foundation, that of Jesus Christ, His Only Begotten Son.

James and the Apostles of Jesus know this for they shake hands with Paul and Barnabas proclaiming they will not approach the Gentile with their gospel, for their gospel is not for the heathen. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[OldRegular]

ituttut

From reading your posts I thought you believed that the Apostle Paul was the Rock.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by ituttut:
James and the Apostles of Jesus know this for they shake hands with Paul and Barnabas proclaiming they will not approach the Gentile with their gospel, for their gospel is not for the heathen. Christian faith, ituttut

Were not John and Peter the only Apostles to shake hands with Paul, the other Apostles were off preaching to the Gentiles.

Galatians 1:17-19
17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
ituttut

From reading your posts I thought you believed that the Apostle Paul was the Rock.

He is the Rock. And on that Rock He will build His Church, and the two foundations built on the Rock is a foundation laid by Peter, and the other by Paul. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
James and the Apostles of Jesus know this for they shake hands with Paul and Barnabas proclaiming they will not approach the Gentile with their gospel, for their gospel is not for the heathen. Christian faith, ituttut

Were not John and Peter the only Apostles to shake hands with Paul, the other Apostles were off preaching to the Gentiles.

We shouldn’t use our best guess when trying to understand His Word. Look in Acts 15, verse 4 being a good source that the Apostles were in on this at the time it happened.

You must evidently believe all the Apostles with the exception of Peter and John were the head of the “troublers”, or Judaizers that tried to corrupt the Gentile believers, having them do works that were required only for the Jew. You should be able to back up such vicious claims before mouthing them in public. Some people with knowledge may decide not to believe some of the “tripe” you put out.

Galatians 1:17-19
17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

Wrong trip. It is your next reference that you should apply.

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. </font>[/QUOTE]James was taking over the dying church, but Peter and John still had much to do with this church of the Jew, and these three were evidently seen as “pillars” of that church, but you can bet the other Apostles and elders shook hands with Peter and Barnabas as they departed. If they didn’t then they are guilty of unbelief that the Gentiles are saved without the ordinance works necessary for the Jew. I will not attribute that to those that understood the difference between the way God saves the circumcised of that day, and those believing they need not be circumcised. See Act 15 for all Apostles were there, and had no intention of every preaching to Gentiles; not as long as the Temple and Jerusalem stood. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[OldRegular]

Poor, Poor ituttut, wrong again. Acts 15:4 does not indicate that Paul met any Apostles other than those he had already met, Peter and John. All the other Apostles were scattered preaching to the Gentiles as Jesus Christ had commanded.