Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
We speak of works verses faith. My question is what constitutes a 'work? '
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That's a good question. I guess to many antinomians on this board, a 'work' is anything other than a passive mental assent to some propositional truths of the gospel message (as they see it), and is therefore something to be vigorously opposed if there is any hint that such a thing is being connected in anyway to (eternal) salvation.Heavenly Pilgrim said:We speak of works verses faith. My question is what constitutes a 'work? '
Doubting Thomas said:That's a good question. I guess to many antinomians on this board, a 'work' is anything other than a passive mental assent to some propositional truths of the gospel message (as they see it), and is therefore something to be vigorously opposed if there is any hint that such a thing is being connected in anyway to (eternal) salvation.
Chemnitz said:I think the term you are looking for is monergist because the belief that it is God alone doing the work of salvation and conversion is different from antinominism which claims the law is no longer valid.
Doubting Thomas said:I was actually thinking of 'antinomianism', but in a broader sense, particularly as expressed by this definition (Wikipedia):
Antinomianism (from the Greek αντι, "against" + νομος, "law"), or lawlessness (in the Greek Bible: ανομια), in theology, is the idea that members of a particular religious group are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality as presented by religious authorities.
I was not referring to the works of the MOSAIC Law, but the idea that we allegedly will be ultimately/finally saved without any works of love.
Chemnitz: The Lutheran perspective which is a case study in monergism has two categories of righteousness. Justification which is the act of salvation and is done totally by God. The second, is sanctification which is the Holy Spirit working in our lives to make us more Christ-like in accordance with the Law. It is sanctification that you would consider acts of love in Lutheran parlance. We teach that sanctification has no influence on justification rather it flows out of our justification.
Chenitz: I think the term you are looking for is monergist because the belief that it is God alone doing the work of salvation and conversion is different from antinominism which claims the law is no longer valid.:
DS: A "work" is some deed we do that requires an expenditure, however trivial.
Faith is not a work; you either genuinely believe Jesus Christ is Lord that you must turn away from your own way to obey Him, or you do not.
To do that good deed for the person you run across takes an expenditure. To be baptized takes an expenditure. To confess Jesus Christ as Lord before people takes an expenditure. To make yourself resist that temptation to sin takes an expenditure. Etc., etc., etc.. These are works.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:HP: Can one be saved apart from baptism, confessing Christ, without remaining obedient?
HOG: The real Bible simply says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus [plus nothing] and you will be saved."
HP: How can ‘an act of love’ be a coercive force upon man by God?? I always thought of love as a voluntary act, not one coerced upon us by God. The picture you paint of love sounds more like a ventriloquist that causes their dummy to give them a hug and a fake kiss, and then begins to believe that indeed the dummy must love them.
HP: Law without penalty is nothing more than good advice or council. If nothing we can do has any affect upon our salvation, and nothing we do can affect our standing before God, you have destroyed the law and have thrown you support to antinomianism whether or not you desire to be called by that term or not. If the penalties of law do not apply, the law is made void.
If you are not antinomian, you must believe that if a righteous man sins, he is once again guilty of breaking the law and as such incurs its just penalties. Can a man that is born again sin and become guilty before God, and if one remains in an unrepentant state, will he stand guilty as a sinner before God at the judgment?
From what I see, monergist is simply code words designed to hide the truth of believing in antinomianism.
I think what you meant to say was - says billwald :laugh:. Sorry I couldn't resist. I John doesn't give us a test for our eternal salvation. There is not a test for our eternal salvation. You either are or you are not. There is no proof of it per se. It's a spiritual transaction, of which the results may or may not show up in the physical reality that we live in. But to say that someone will prove their salvation by works or they are really not save is just a backloaded salvation message.There is not test for salvation except continuing good works - says 1 John.
"Call Ghostbusters!" :laugh: :laugh:Brother Bob said:So, if the Cals want to call faith a work they don't have the support of John Calvin here, but John Calvin spoke both ways, so what you gonna do. (when they come for you)![]()
You'd better read 1 John again. It's full of ways we know that we're saved.J. Jump said:I think what you meant to say was - says billwald :laugh:. Sorry I couldn't resist. I John doesn't give us a test for our eternal salvation. There is not a test for our eternal salvation. You either are or you are not. There is no proof of it per se. It's a spiritual transaction, of which the results may or may not show up in the physical reality that we live in. But to say that someone will prove their salvation by works or they are really not save is just a backloaded salvation message.
Salvation is by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved unto good works that we SHOULD walk in them. Notice it doesn't say WILL walk in them. Huge difference there. The word translated "would" by some translations and "should" by others is a subjunctive verb in the Greek, which means an action may or may not happen. It's not a guarantee.