WHAT DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY ? - IT IS NOT SUNDAY

[3rdAngel]

Hi Roby, nice to se you. Some comments for your consideration provided below.

Colossians 2;16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 3rdAngel, this verse does NOT specify "High Sabbaths", as you said in so many words. It just says "Sabbaths".

Sure it does COLOSSIANS 2:16 here is linked to FESTIVALS and NEW MOONS and FOOD AND DRINK which are references to the annual JEWISH festivals that had special "sabbath[s] or sabbath day[s] (plural is used here not singular which would be in reference to "the SABBATH" of 4th commandment).

The GREEK word used here sabbaton has a slightly different meaning to the Hebrew shabbath and depending on it's application can refer to "the Sabbath" or "any day of weekly repose from work". Or depending on it's application can even refer to the "whole week" with all of the avove definitions being applied to either in sigular or plural applications depending on the scripture context.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G4521

σάββατον sabbaton Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

This means ALL the ANNUAL FEAST days that were not the SEVENTH DAY but where no work was to be done are also translated as SABBATON in the Greek.

These ceremonial "SPECIAL" Sabbaths (plural) were connected to. 1. Annual festival of The blowing of trumpet (Leviticus 23:24) 2. Annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:32) and the 3. Annual Feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:39). These "SPECIAL" Sabbath could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle and were connected directly to these festivals that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus and God's plan of Salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

In the days of JESUS and the APOSTLES their bible was the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures and everything we have in the NEW TESTAMENT comes from the OLD TESTAMENT. Paul in COLOSSIANS 2 is referring to the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7. This is demonstrated in both within scripture and chapter context and can be shown directly from the OLD Testament what PAUL was referring to.

I will post the proof to this in case anyone is interested in the truth and detail here. If you are interested please I pray check what I am saying if it is true or not brother. Be as the faithful Bareans...

Ok I may do this over a few posts to look at both the 1. within scripture context, 2. the within chapter context as well as 3. the origin of COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures and fulfillment in the NEW TESTAMENT.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sure there is.



Then you should be able to show me the scriptures that say SUNDAY or the FIRST DAY μία των is the "LORDS DAY"? You cannot can you.



The FIRST DAY μία των is used in reference to SUNDAY in the Kione Greek of the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures and NO! there is not scripture that says "SUNDAY" (first day of the week μία των) is "THE LORDS DAY"

The GREEK word Κυριακή is not a reference to the 1st day of the week. The term "LORDS DAY" used in Revelation 1:10 is not linked to μία των which is used in the NEW TESTAMENT Kione Greek which means FIRST DAY.

In Revelations 1:10 "Lords Day κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ does not link to any scripture reference in the NEW TESTAMENT to μιά των σαββάτων (the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK).

κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ used in Revelations 1:10 is in reference to the Lord's ownership of the day. It does not say that this day is in reference to μιά των σαββάτων which means the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK.

Your challenge here in this OP is to prove that the Lord's DAY is in reference to the First day of the week and prove it from the scriptures.

Hope this is helpful.

NO μία των = No Sunday (First day of the week)

Are we free under the NC to worship God any day, or must we still observe the sabbath of the OC?

 

[Yeshua1]

WRONG! Paul states nowhere that we are free to break God's commandments which includes God's 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. PAUL teaches that God's LAW is establsihed through faith not done away by faith *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12.

Worshipping the Lord on Sunday fulfills that Command, as we are no longer under the Law of the OC, and worshipping on Saturday only, but any and all days now can be "Day of the Lord"

 

[3rdAngel]

Colossians 2;16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 3rdAngel, this verse does NOT specify "High Sabbaths", as you said in so many words. It just says "Sabbaths".

Let's start...

COLOSSIANS 2:11-17 CHAPTER CONTEXT
[11], In whom also you are CIRCUMCISION with the CIRCUMCISION made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12], Buried with him in baptism, in which also you are risen with him through the faith of the working of God, who has raised him from the dead.
[13], And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14], BLOTTING OUT the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15], And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16], Let no man therefore judge you in FOOD AND DRINK, or in respect of a HOLY DAY [FESTIVAL], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:
[17], Which are a SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

CHAPTER CONTEXT OF COL 2:14 AND SUBJECT MATTER (COL 2:11-17)

V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

THE SHADOW LAWS FORETOLD IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES….

DEUTERONOMY 10:16 [16] CIRCUMCISE THERFORE THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

DEUTERONOMY 30:6 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4:4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

NOTE: NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2:25-29 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 CORITHIANS 7:19 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

HEBREWS 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS [NOTE: THE SHADOW OF CIRCUMCSION]: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT. The SHADOW laws of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION from the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant are the within CHAPTER CONTEXT BEFORE COL 2:14

Let's continue on through the chapter...

COLOSSIANS 2:14 SCRIPTURE SUBJECT MATTER AND CONTENT.

14, Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase> the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφον cheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means ordinance; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLESIASTICAL LAWS> that was against us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7.

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA meaning THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant *EXODUS 24:7

This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). Also the chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS ALONG WITH THE ORDINANCES OF v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments which is death) and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

ECCLESIASTES 18:20 20, The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

ROMANS 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 [19] For GOD has said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, BLESSINGS AND CURSES: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [20] That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

The death penalty is against us. So were all the ceremonial laws from the OLD COVENANT that were required to seek God's forgiveness *LEVITICUS 16. In the NEW COVENANT we are forgiven by FAITH through confession and repentance for our sins *1 JOHN 1:9; MATTHEW 3:2 . No more animal sacrifices required.

(See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

CONCLUSION; COL 2:14 is talking about the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION. This is supported also by the within CHAPTER CONTEXT and SUBJECT matter of v16 which are all CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOCAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and not referring to ABOLISHING God’s 10 Commandments.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi Roby, nice to se you. Some comments for your consideration provided below.



Sure it does COLOSSIANS 2:16 here is linked to FESTIVALS and NEW MOONS and FOOD AND DRINK which are references to the annual JEWISH festivals that had special "sabbath[s] or sabbath day (plural is used here not singular which would be in reference to "the SABBATH" of 4th commandment).

The GREEK word used here sabbaton has a slightly different meaning to the Hebrew shabbath and depending on it's application can refer to "the Sabbath" or any day of weekly repose from work. Or depending on it's application can even refer to the whole week in sigular or plural applications

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G4521

σάββατον sabbaton Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

This means ALL the ANNUAL FEAST days that were not the SEVENTH DAY but where no work was to be done are also translated as SABBATON in the Greek.

These ceremonial "SPECIAL" Sabbaths (plural) were connected to. 1. Annual festival of The blowing of trumpet (Leviticus 23:24) 2. Annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:32) and the 3. Annual Feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:39). These "SPECIAL" Sabbath could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle and were connected directly to these festivals that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus and God's plan of Salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

In the days of JESUS and the APOSTLES their bible was the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures and everything we have in the NEW TESTAMENT comes from the OLD TESTAMENT. Paul in COLOSSIANS 2 is referring to the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7. This is demonstrated in both within scripture and chapter context and can be shown directly from the OLD Testament what PAUL was referring to.

I will post the proof to this in case anyone is interested in the truth and detail here. If you are interested please I pray check what I am saying if it is true or not brother. Be as the faithful Bareans...

Ok I may do this over a few posts to look at both the 1. within scripture context, 2. the within chapter context as well as 3. the origin of COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures and fulfillment in the NEW TESTAMENT.

The early Church in the transistion period stayed going to Jewish temple on Sabbath, but they made a clear and clean break especially after the revelations given to us thru Apostle Paul!
Do you observe all of the OT Sabbath then, all 613 rules and regulations, especially those concerning sacrificing animals?

 

[3rdAngel]

Looking at the within scripture word meaning of and context of COLOSSIANS 2:14-16 continued..

COLOSSIANS 2:14 [14], Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφωexaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase>the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφονcheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means ordinance; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLIESIASTICAL laws >that was against us, WHICH WERE AGAINST , and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 is in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT (i.e. shadow law of circumcision).

So with the GREEK word meanings added for clarification the scripture context of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 reads..

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT. The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA mean ing THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant

What is being REPLACED in the NEW COVANANT is the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL laws and ORDINANCES not God's 10 commandments!

This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). The chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS and ORDINANCES OF the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

DEUTERONOMY 31 [26] TAKE THIS BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the side of the ark of the COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 29 [21] And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, ACCORDING TO ALL THE CURSES OF THE COVENANT that are WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW.

(See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

CONCLUSION; COL 2:14 is talking about the CIVIL CEREMONIAL AND ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES written in the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION. This is supported also by the within CHAPTER CONTEXT and SUBJECT matter of v16 which are all CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOCAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and not referring to ABOLISHING God’s 10 Commandments.

 

[3rdAngel]

CONNECTING THE OLD TO THE NEW AND THE NEW TO THE OLD COLOSSIANS 2:14

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

old covenant...blood of goats.....The meat and drink offerings

HEBREWS 10 [4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

EPHESIANS 2 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

HEBREWS 13 [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be ESTABLISHED WITH GRACE; NOT WITH MEATS, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For THE BODIES OF THOSE BEASTS, WHOSE BLOOD is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO, THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, suffered without the gate.

The first covenant had ORDINANCES which stood ONLY in meat and drink offerings which were a figure. A shadow

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings).

NUMBERS 19 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

JOHN 6 [55] For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed.

NUMBERS 18 [8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, BY AN ORDINANCE for ever.[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: EVERY OBLATION of theirs, EVERY MEAT OFFERING of theirs, and EVERY SIN OFFERING of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.The new covenant is all about the blood of Christ and God's LAW written on the heart in those who BELIEVE the WORD of GOD. Not changing the law....but fulfilling the law

ROMANS 3 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YEA, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

ZECHARIAH 9 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, THY KING COMETH UNTO THEE: HE IS JUST, AND HAVING SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water
Verse 9 definitely prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant

HEBREWS 12 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New covenant... blood

LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

Where is all this leading? The NEW COVENANT of course...

JEREMIAH [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:[32], NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt ; MY COVENANT WHICH THEY BROKE, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:[33], But THIS SHALL BE MY COVENANT THAT I SHALL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISREAL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND I WILL WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE; [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

2 CORINTHIANS 3 [2], You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN THE FLESHLY TABLES OF THE HEART. (see all of 2 COR 3)

……………………………

OVERALL CONCLUSION; Jesus did not come to change or destroy GOD'S LAW (10 Commandments). It is through GOD's LAW that we have a KNOLWEDGE of what SIN is.

The sabbath is still to be kept. He came to fulfil what was written of Him in the books of the law and to END the Mosaic law for remission of SIN and the penalty of SIN in those who BELIEVE.

NO MORE ORDINANCES WRITTEN IN THE MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT Ceremonial/Levitical/Sacrificial laws and animal sacrifices and FORGIVENESS OF SIN and DELIVERANCE from the PENALTY of SIN through FAITH in CHRIST and the BLOOD of the NEW COVENANT.

............

Now we have established here is that the within chapter context in COLOSSIANS 2:11-16....

1. The GREEK words SABBATON used here can refer to any day that is a rest from work, the week, or the sabbath of God's 4th commandment.

2. The chapter context is in relation to the shadow laws in ordinances from the Mosaic book of the old covenant and not God's 10 commandments so cannot be referring to God's 4th commandment.

3. COLOSSIANS 2:14 is in reference to "THE BOOK OF ORDINANCES of the OLD COVENANT and not God's 10 commandment

4. COLOSSIANS 2:16 here is linked to FESTIVALS and NEW MOONS and FOOD AND DRINK and SABBATH DAY plual not singular which are references to the annual JEWISH festivals that had special "sabbath or sabbath day (plural is used here not singular which would be in reference to "the SABBATH" of 4th commandment).

In the next post we will evaluate the "within scripture context" of COLOSSIANS 2:16 linking also the ORIGIN of the OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT scriptures that PAUL is referring to.

Next we will look at the within context origins of COLOSSIANS 2:16 from the OLD TESTAMENT scirptures..

 

[3rdAngel]

Colossians 2;16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 3rdAngel, this verse does NOT specify "High Sabbaths", as you said in so many words. It just says "Sabbaths".

Ok Roby lets now look at the "within scripture context" of COLOSSIANS 2:16 linking the ORIGIN of the OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT scriptures that PAUL is referring to.

COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY [FEASTIVALS], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS <plural>:

PAUL'S within scriptures CONTEXT and use of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 is in reference to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.

EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual BURN'T OFFERING, and his DRINK OFFERING.

ISAIAH 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, THE CALLING OF ASSEMBLIES (annual festivals), I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your NEW MOONS and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

LEVITICUS 23:4 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

HOSEA 2:11 [11], I will also cause all her mirth to CEASE, HER [ISRAEL'S] FEAST DAYS, her NEW MOONS, and HER SABBATHS, and all HER [ISRAELS] SOLEMN FEASTS.

wait for it back to the NEW...

HEBREWS 9:1-12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO, ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

HEBREWS 10:1-9
[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in those SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], For it is not possible that THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS should take away sins.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU WOULD NOT BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
[6], IN BURN'T OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
[7], Then said I, See, I come in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
[9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

NOTE; the LAW in reference here is NOT God's 10 Commandments but the law of sin offereings from the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the LAW *DEUTERONOMY 31:24-26 from the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 (Please look at the attached scriptures)

I consider myself free from that law, under Jesus, & I don't observe any part of it except those things which are always sinful, such as murder, stealing, sexual sin, etc.

According to God's WORD the purpose of God's LAW (10 commandments) is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. If we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:9-11. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is if we break it. God knows that many break his 4th commandment out of ignorance because of what they do not know any better and have been fed lies from the teachings and traditions of men that seek to break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

In these times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a KNOWLEDGE of the truth he calls all men everywhere to BELIEVE and FOLLOW his Word *ACTS 17:30-31; JAMES 4:17.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

 

[3rdAngel]

Are we free under the NC to worship God any day, or must we still observe the sabbath of the OC?

We should worship God everyday. That is not the problem. The problem is sin which is breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when we knowingly break them *ROMANS 3:20. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when we knowingly break it. According to God's WORD if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:9-10. In times when we do not know any better God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of what his truth is he expects us to hear his Word and follow him *ACTS 17:30-31; JAMES 4:17. Those reject God's WORD and continue in known unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of what the truth is will not enter into the kingdom of God because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39; MATTHEW 7:22-24.

 

[3rdAngel]

Worshipping the Lord on Sunday fulfills that Command, as we are no longer under the Law of the OC, and worshipping on Saturday only, but any and all days now can be "Day of the Lord"

No it doesn't. There is no scripture in all of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day. This is a teaching and traditions of men handed down to protestantism by the Roman Catholic Church that leads many to break the commandments of God. JESUS says those who knowingly (not those who unknowingly or ignorantly; God has his people in every church living up to all the light he has revealed to them) follow these teachings are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9

 

[3rdAngel]

The early Church in the transistion period stayed going to Jewish temple on Sabbath, but they made a clear and clean break especially after the revelations given to us thru Apostle Paul! Do you observe all of the OT Sabbath then, all 613 rules and regulations, especially those concerning sacrificing animals?

Your mixing up the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC book of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 with God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS in both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is when broken. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD or the 613 commandments of God. That is why God's WORD (not mine) calls them the 10 Commandments *EXODUS 34:28; DEUTERONOMY 4:1; DEUTERONOMY 10:4. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Who do we believe and follow? The teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God? or the Word of GOD?

God's Sheep heat His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

Who do you choose to follow?

 

[Yeshua1]

Your mixing up the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC book of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 with God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS in both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is when broken. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD or the 613 commandments of God. That is why God's WORD (not mine) calls them the 10 Commandments *EXODUS 34:28; DEUTERONOMY 4:1; DEUTERONOMY 10:4. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Who do we believe and follow? The teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God? or the Word of GOD?

God's Sheep heat His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

Who do you choose to follow?

Are we now under the Law, or under Grace? Are we Isreal of the flesh, or Isreal of the spirit?

 

[3rdAngel]

Are we now under the Law, or under Grace? Are we Isreal of the flesh, or Isreal of the spirit?

No one is "UNDER THER LAW" if they through faith have repented, confessed and been forgiven their sins. We are only "UNDER THE LAW" if we stand guilty before God of breaking it *ROMANS 3:19-20.

We are only saved only by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not by works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9.

OBEDIENCE to God's Word is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith. We are all sinners in need of a Saviour and God's salvation to save us from our sins. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments). Salvation is not that of the false gospel of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" that teaches we to continue in sin and still receive God's salvation and his promises *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; JOHN 3:3-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise of a new heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 and if we sin willfully after we recieve a knowledge of the truth there remains no sacrifice for sin and a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank, some comments for you below.
No one has added to the text you are simply ignoring what the text says. The scripture in MATTHEW 12:8 read by itself does not need any explanation and answers the question asked perfectly and defines what day is "THE LORDS DAY" Let's see if this is true?

WHAT DAY IS THE LORDS DAY?

Once again angel you added to the word of GOD because no where in the text of Matthew 12 is the question asked "WHAT DAY IS THE LORDS DAY?" and that is my point which you fail to see. I diligently searched for this question in Matthew 12 and could not find it.

However I do find the pharisees complaining to Jesus that His disciples were picking and eating corn on the Sabbath,

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

The primary question being answered in Matthew 12 is not - what day is the Lords Day - but by what authority did Jesus allow His disciples to pick and eat the corn on the Sabbath.

God does not need our help and adding to God's Word does not make it disappear.

If you disagree please show me the scripture that says "SUNDAY" (or the first day of the week) is "THE LORDS DAY" You cannot can you. Yet it is God's Word alone that says the SABBATH DAY is "THE LORDS DAY".

Of course (and once again) Every day is the Lord's Day including the Sabbath.

"Sunday" is not found in the bible because it is a name of a day which is Pagan in origin. The day of the week which honors the sun as a deity. Each day of the week in Anglo-Saxon English/Druid culture is assigned to a Pagan deity.

You know that angel and you know that anyone with any knowledge of religion knows that.

So again - your o/p premise is wrong - Matthew 12 is not concerned whether Sunday is the LORD'S Day but by what authority and for what reason does He (Jesus) allow His disciples to pick and eat corn on the Sabbath.

Answer: wait for it...

FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY (Matthew 12:8).

 

[3rdAngel]

Once again angel you added to the word of GOD because no where in the text of Matthew 12 is the question asked "WHAT DAY IS THE LORDS DAY?" and that is my point which you fail to see. I diligently searched for this question in Matthew 12 and could not find it.

However I do find the pharisees complaining to Jesus that His disciples were picking and eating corn on the Sabbath,

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

The primary question being answered in Matthew 12 is not - what day is the Lords Day - but by what authority did Jesus allow His disciples to pick and eat the corn on the Sabbath.

God does not need our help and adding to God's Word does not make it disappear.

Of course (and once again) Every day is the Lord's Day including the Sabbath.

"Sunday" is not found in the bible because it is a name of a day which is Pagan in origin. The day of the week which honors the sun as a deity. Each day of the week in Anglo-Saxon English/Druid culture is assigned to a Pagan deity.

You know that angel and you know that anyone with any knowledge of religion knows that.

So again - your o/p premise is wrong - Matthew 12 is not concerned whether Sunday is the LORD'S Day but by what authority and for what reason does He (Jesus) allow His disciples to pick and eat corn on the Sabbath.

Answer: wait for it...

FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY (Matthew 12:8).

WRONG!

No one has added to the text you are simply ignoring what the text says. The scripture in MATTHEW 12:8 read by itself does not need any explanation and answers the question asked perfectly and defines what day is "THE LORDS DAY" Let's see if this is true?

WHAT DAY IS THE LORDS DAY?

Answer: wait for it...

FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY (Matthew 12:8).

God does not need our help and ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

If you disagree please show me the scripture that says "SUNDAY" (or the first day of the week) is "THE LORDS DAY" You cannot can you. Yet it is God's Word alone that says the SABBATH DAY is "THE LORDS DAY".

Hope this helps.

 

[Yeshua1]

WRONG!

No one has added to the text you are simply ignoring what the text says. The scripture in MATTHEW 12:8 read by itself does not need any explanation and answers the question asked perfectly and defines what day is "THE LORDS DAY" Let's see if this is true?

WHAT DAY IS THE LORDS DAY?

Answer: wait for it...

FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY (Matthew 12:8).

God does not need our help and ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

If you disagree please show me the scripture that says "SUNDAY" (or the first day of the week) is "THE LORDS DAY" You cannot can you. Yet it is God's Word alone that says the SABBATH DAY is "THE LORDS DAY".

Hope this helps.

Are you Sda?

 

[3rdAngel]

Are you Sda?

What I am does not matter. I am no one. Only a voice from the wilderness of the web who loves God's Word. I hear his voice and he is calling all who have ears to hear to come out from following man made traditions back to his Word. God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him

 

[Adonia]

to come out from following man made traditions

Pleeease!!!!!! Those that follow a religious sect that was not founded until the 19th century which holds the writings of one woman in the highest regard have no basis to talk about anyone else's "man made traditions".

Your little group is the epitome of a "man made" religious sect and God certainly did not allow a lie to be spread concerning the proper Christian faith for over 1800 years until your gal came along to supposedly set things straight.

 

[3rdAngel]

Pleeease!!!!!! Those that follow a religious sect that was not founded until the 19th century which holds the writings of one woman in the highest regard have no basis to talk about anyone else's "man made traditions". Your little group is the epitome of a "man made" religious sect and God certainly did not allow a lie to be spread concerning the proper Christian faith for over 1800 years until your gal came along to supposedly set things straight.

Please your words only flatter me. It is amazing how those that do not have God's WORD to supoport their traditions that break the commandments of God accuse those who have God's WORD of things that are not true.

The religious teachers in the days of Jesus said that he had a devil and his followers were a cult this was also independently verifiable in the days of Jesus and the Apostles. Just ask the Jews who hung Jesus on the cross (John 7:20; John 8:48; 52; Matt 10:25 12:24; Acts 28:22).

This could be said of all those who followed Jesus throughout time even before Jesus the religious teachers of the day killed the prophets sent to them by God to share God's WORD (Luke 11:47; Matt 23:31)

Stephen was stoned to death it was independently verified that he was blaspheming because no one could argue with the scriptures that he was presenting (Acts 6:8-15).

Paul, Peter and most of the Apostles were also executed because it was independently verified by the religious teachers of the day that they could not respond to God's WORD they were sharing with them.

Not to mention all those of the reformation and the birth of Protestantism and the inquisition of the Roman Catholic Church which executed millions of God's people because it was independently verified by the Roman Catholic Church that they were all heretics and should be burned at the stake.

Now today you call heretic or cult because it is independently verified because you cannot respond to the scriptures that disagree with your Catholic traditions which has led many to break God's Commandments?

ONLY God's WORD is true and you do not have it to support your tradition that breaks the commandments of God. The WORD of God is sent to help you have a closer walk with God but you reject God's WORD in order to follow the traditions of the fathers.

Jesus and Paul spoke correctly quoting Isaiah;

Well spoke the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is stubborn, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Something to think about who do we BELIEVE and FOLLOW? The teachings and traditions of men that break the Commandments of God or the WORD of GOD. Jesus says those who follow man made traditions that break God's Commandments are not following him...

MATTHEW 15:2-9 [2], Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. [3], But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death. [5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me; [6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. [7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

It is very clear according to Jesus if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the Commandments of GOD we are not following God.

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

.......................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

 

[Salty]

Please your words only flatter me. It is amazing how those that do not have God's WORD to supoport their traditions that break the commandments of God accuse those who have God's WORD of things that are not true....

3rdAngel - You have asked many times for someone to answer your question

So Please answer this one very simple question -
and a "yes" or "No" is sufficient.

Here is the Question:
If a person believes that Sunday is the Lords day - will that keep him out of Heaven?