What do Baptists and Catholics have in common?

[Amy.G]

James, the Brother of Our Lord and first bishop of the Jerusalem Church, wrote in his Epistle:
"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

I think it would be news to him, at least, that the "true gospel of justification by faith alone" is the "one and only saving gospel", or that justification by works is a "false gospel" "condemned in the Scriptures". (Too bad he wasn't alive today so you could set him straight.)

James is not saying that we are saved by works. If he were, he would be in direct conflict with Paul's gospel of grace.


James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


In these 2 verses, James seems to contradict himself. In vs. 23 he says righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith.
In vs. 24, he says it is by works.


What he is saying is that a faith that does not produce works is a dead, worthless faith. Which really isn't faith at all.

True faith will produce good works. He illustrates this principle here:

James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Doubting Thomas...

You asked me about the truth of justification through faith alone, in light of the James passage you referred to.

Well, AmyG beat me to it with this response...

"James is not saying that we are saved by works. If he were, he would be in direct conflict with Paul's gospel of grace.


James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


In these 2 verses, James seems to contradict himself. In vs. 23 he says righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith.
In vs. 24, he says it is by works.


What he is saying is that a faith that does not produce works is a dead, worthless faith. Which really isn't faith at all.

True faith will produce good works. He illustrates this principle here:

James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Excellant, Amy. :wavey:

But unfortunetly it will probably fall on deaf ears. (all though I hope not)

The truth of justification through faith alone is a truth that irritates all who just have to feel that their *doing good* in one form or another *merits* them their entrance into heaven. And of course the Catholic Church has been building...for 1600 years or so now...a grand religion that keeps its victims in the clutches of its bondage by keeping them enslaved to its endless "works" based systems of justification

In contrast to that, Praise God for His matchless provision, and His wonderful grace....salvation and surety, through faith in Christ ALONE.

Praise God!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

James is not saying that we are saved by works. If he were, he would be in direct conflict with Paul's gospel of grace.

James is emphatically saying a MAN is JUSTIFIED (ie reckoned righteous) by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE.

The problem is folks too narrowly equate 'being saved' with 'justification', and that with the (unproven) assumption that 'justification' is just a one-time, once-for-all event in a believers life. Though justification is indeed intimately related to salvation, one must remember that salvation fundamentally is the believer's union with Christ, and justification is God's reckoning righteous the one joined to Christ. So it is legitimate (and necessitated by Scripture) to describe justification as an ongoing reality, insofar the believer remains in Christ. In the first instance, it occurs apart from any works (and always apart from the works of the Law) when one is 'washed, sanctified, and justified' (1 Cor 6:11) when he first is united to (and raised with) Christ (see also Eph 2:1-9). Subsequent to that one is further justified (ie reckoned righteous) as one continues to abide in Christ and thus bear fruit which is proof of one's ACTIVE (and ongoing) faith in Christ (John 15). This is what James teaches and is consitent with the words of Christ (John 15), Peter (2 Peter 1:5-11), and even Paul who states the one who believes in Christ must be careful to maintain good works so he doesn't become "unfruitful" (Titus 3:8,14).

This fact of justification occuring more than once in the life of the faith is born out in the example of Abraham who is said to be justified at more than one point in his life---Gen 15, Gen 22 (see James 2), and implied in Gen 12 (see Hebrews 11).


So this indeed does NOT coflict with Paul's Gospel of grace. In fact, Paul wrote to the Galatians (5:6) that what actually AVAILS FOR ANYTHING is a FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE. Both Paul and James would agree that it's only when faith is accompanied by works of love that it avails or profits for salvation.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


In these 2 verses, James seems to contradict himself. In vs. 23 he says righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith.
In vs. 24, he says it is by works.


What he is saying is that a faith that does not produce works is a dead, worthless faith. Which really isn't faith at all.

True faith will produce good works. He illustrates this principle here:

James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Not quite, Amy--James is NOT saying that TRUE faith will produce works, as if he is contrasting some alleged "true faith" and "false faith". He doesn't add the modifiers 'true' and 'false' to distinguish allegedly two different KINDS of faith in this passage. What he is doing is using "faith" throughout the passage in a fairly limited sense, and that being of "intellectual assent" (to theological truth). [To see this is the case, and how well it fits the context of the passage, just substitute "intellectual assent" for "faith" or "believe" in this passage]. Such faith as intellectual assent is REAL, and is necessary (not bad or false), but is insufficient for salvation in and of itself. (This also seems to be the sense Peter is using "faith" in 2 Peter 1:5-11, when he states the believer must add to his "faith" "virtue, knowledge, self-control, etc"). Even demons have an "intellectual assent" to some theological truth (that God exists) and tremble.


On the otherhand Paul seems to use "faith" in a broader sense when contrasting this with the works of Law, and that of shorthand for "faith working through love" which is what he positively affirms actually avails for anything (Gal 5:6) as opposed to the works of the Law (or lack thereof).

Nor is he saying that "dead faith" is really not faith at all. He gives the illustration using the example of a BODY without a spirit being dead. If you notice the BODY is a real BODY--it's not non-existent; it's real, but dead nonetheless. Though faith that is not accompanied by works is ultimately dead and cannot save, it being "intellectual assent" is nonetheless a real and necessary thing--just as a human BODY is a real and necessary thing to be a human being; but just not sufficient to be fully human.

 

[Amy.G]

Doubting Thomas, your moniker certainly suits you.


Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


If you think you can be "good", then you are only deceiving yourself.

As for me, I will rely on the goodness of Christ and the blood He has shed for me. I am only good in they eyes of God because He sees me through Christ.


THANK YOU :jesus:

 

[DHK]

James is emphatically saying a MAN is JUSTIFIED (ie reckoned righteous) by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE.

No it isn't. I have explained this so many times on this board I can't count. I will simply give a link to my recent explanation to Matt. You can read it there.

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1522588&postcount=54

James and Romans 5:1 teach the same thing. The Bible does not contradict itself.
Romans 5:1 states:
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
It is not justified by faith plus anything. It is justified by faith and faith alone. Read the rest of the post and understand why.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Doubting Thomas, your moniker certainly suits you.


Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


If you think you can be "good", then you are only deceiving yourself.

As for me, I will rely on the goodness of Christ and the blood He has shed for me. I am only good in they eyes of God because He sees me through Christ.


THANK YOU :jesus:

I take the the time to support my position with ample scriptures, using the plain grammatical meaning and in context, and the best you can come up with is an ad hominem jab at my handle along with a suggestion I may be deceiving myself based on an unsupported assumption about what I may or may not be thinking? I guess that's par for the course on the Baptistboard.
:BangHead:

 

[Doubting Thomas]

DHK,
I had written: "James is emphatically saying a MAN is JUSTIFIED (ie reckoned righteous) by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE."

To which you (predictably) replied:

No it isn't.

Here's the verse in plain English, DHK:
"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only". (James 2:24)
So what part of "a man is justified by works and not by faith only" do you not understand, DHK?

I have explained this so many times on this board I can't count. I will simply give a link to my recent explanation to Matt. You can read it there.

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1522588&postcount=54

You certainly have attempted to explain away the plain meaning of that verse in the past several times, but explaining and explaining away are two different things.

James and Romans 5:1 teach the same thing. The Bible does not contradict itself.
Romans 5:1 states:
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
It is not justified by faith plus anything. It is justified by faith and faith alone. Read the rest of the post and understand why.

I agree that James and Paul don't contradict, but the whole "justified by faith alone" idea contradicts James and adds something to Paul what really isn't there (sorta like when Martin Luther tried to add the word for "alone" in Romans 3:28 in his translation of the Scriptures). Sorry, it just does. I demonstrated that in my initial response to Amy above. I tell you what--when you respond to the points made in my post to her, then I'll read your link.

 

[Grace&Truth]

James is emphatically saying a MAN is JUSTIFIED (ie reckoned righteous) by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE.

DT if what you have said about this verse is true then that would contrdict these verse:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Compare these veses with Eph. 2:8-10:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The point is these verse are dealing with Salvation, and specificly how that God see's our heart man cannot. However, in James, we are looking at faith from how man see's man. The key verse is:

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

See we cannot see someone's faith, but if one has true saving faith (has been saved) then as Eph. 2:10 tells us God then produces good works in our life as we depend (faith) on Him. The Bible does not contradict itself. Also it is helpful to study all verse on faith before we come to a conclusion of what we might think it is. But there is a verse that does tell us:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance (Reality or confidence) of things hoped for, the evidence (convincement) of things not seen.

So the bottom line is that faith is "God dependance." First in Salvation and then in our Christian walk, which then allows God to do His work first in us and then thru us. [I]"We are His workmanship, created in Christ Unto good works." [/I](Eph. 2:10). :godisgood:

 

[Marcia]

I had written: "James is emphatically saying a MAN is JUSTIFIED (ie reckoned righteous) by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE."

...I agree that James and Paul don't contradict, but the whole "justified by faith alone" idea contradicts James and adds something to Paul what really isn't there (sorta like when Martin Luther tried to add the word for "alone" in Romans 3:28 in his translation of the Scriptures). Sorry, it just does. I demonstrated that in my initial response to Amy above. I tell you what--when you respond to the points made in my post to her, then I'll read your link.

You are painting the word "justified" as meaning the same thing in every instance, when it doesn't. If you read this passage in context, it is clear that what James is saying is that one is vindicated when his faith produces works - not saved, but vindicated. Iow, the proof is in the pudding.

This passage in James is about how, once saved, one's works help grow the faith, they complete it. Otherwise, faith may save you but does not reveal itself in the works it should produce.

This phrase is used by Mormons - it's one of their top challenges - and I have showed them many times (they used to come to my door all the time in a former apt. where I lived for 13 yrs.) how they are misinterpreting it.

If you read this, you can see it is not about being justified when one is saved/declared righteous.

19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

The key is verse 26. The works justify the faith, i.e., give life to the faith, just as the spirit gives life to the body.

 

[DHK]

James is emphatically saying a MAN is JUSTIFIED (ie reckoned righteous) by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE.

No he isn't. The Bible does't contradict itself. And your typical answer:
"I tell you what--when you respond to the points made in my post to her, then I'll read your link."[/b]
is just a cop out, and shows laziness on your part.
I have given you a well thought out answer. Now you want me to through the exact same thing that I just finished with Matt. Why do you think so highly of yourself? Is not my answer to Matt good enough for you?

The problem is folks too narrowly equate 'being saved' with 'justification', and that with the (unproven) assumption that 'justification' is just a one-time, once-for-all event in a believers life.

Set forth proof from the Bible that it isn't. Justification is more or less a legal term. A payment has been made. And the person is justified once and for all. There is no possible way that a person can continually be justified. The term is never used as a process, but always as an event. When God looks down at the believer he looks at him as already being justified or "just as if I never sinned." It has been taken care of. The penalty has been paid. It never has to be paid again. It is a one time event.
"to justify: to declare free of blame or absolve." (thefreedictionary.com)
This is a secular definition. You might sometimes here the statement: "Now, I have been justified." At some point in time a person is absolved or declared free of blame. Biblically, at the point of salvation the sinner is declared free of sin. He is absolved. His sins: past, present, and future are declared forgiven, absolved--just as if he never sinned. Even using a secular dictionary it is a one-time event. There is no such thing as a process of justification. Learn the definition of "to justify," "justification."

Though justification is indeed intimately related to salvation, one must remember that salvation fundamentally is the believer's union with Christ, and justification is God's reckoning righteous the one joined to Christ.

It is an initial action taken at the time of salvation when the relation to Christ is initiated.
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God." The justification has already happened. The peace is in the present tense.

So it is legitimate (and necessitated by Scripture) to describe justification as an ongoing reality,

No, that is not even logical. Is it logical to say that because I am born again I am still being born? This is your reasoning. I was born once. I was justified once.

insofar the believer remains in Christ. In the first instance, it occurs apart from any works (and always apart from the works of the Law) when one is 'washed, sanctified, and justified' (1 Cor 6:11) when he first is united to (and raised with) Christ (see also Eph 2:1-9).

Sanctification and justification are two different processes. Justification is a one time event. Sanctification is an on-going process throughout the believer's life. It has nothing to do with justification. The act of justification puts one in Christ. Without being justified he cannot be in Christ, for he must be absolved of his sin.

Subsequent to that one is further justified (ie reckoned righteous) as one continues to abide in Christ and thus bear fruit which is proof of one's ACTIVE (and ongoing) faith in Christ (John 15).

This is not what is taught by John 15 or by any other passage, especially those favorite passages found in the Book of Hezekiah. There is only one act of justification. One is not born again and again and again, etc. This is exactly what you are suggesting except in different terminology. You can only be born (spiritually) once.

This is what James teaches and is consitent with the words of Christ (John 15), Peter (2 Peter 1:5-11), and even Paul who states the one who believes in Christ must be careful to maintain good works so he doesn't become "unfruitful" (Titus 3:8,14).

Paul, James, Peter, nor Jesus don't not teach what you suggest. You are reading a false doctrine into Scripture. Good works is like a fruit of the Spirit. It comes as a result of those that are already saved. The lack thereof doesn't take away someone's salvation. I am sure that you have not continued in good works for 24 hours of the day each day of your life. You have sinned have you not? Does 1John 1:9 then become meaningless?

This fact of justification occuring more than once in the life of the faith is born out in the example of Abraham who is said to be justified at more than one point in his life---Gen 15, Gen 22 (see James 2), and implied in Gen 12 (see Hebrews 11).

It was once. Romans 4. Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness sake.
We are made righteous by faith and faith alone. And so it is with justification. It is an initial act taken by God when one puts their faith in God. That is in regard to salvation. However the word "justification" is a common word. It can be used in places that have nothing to do with salvation at all. David was justified before his enemies.

What was the accusation of Elihu against Job?
Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Jeremiah 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
--Why was Israel justified more than Judah?

The term "to justify" is used in many different senses, and not all have to do with salvation, as you can see above. But when it does have to do with salvation, it is a one time event.

 

[DHK]

So this indeed does NOT coflict with Paul's Gospel of grace. In fact, Paul wrote to the Galatians (5:6) that what actually AVAILS FOR ANYTHING is a FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE. Both Paul and James would agree that it's only when faith is accompanied by works of love that it avails or profits for salvation.

Nonsense! Good works are a product of salvation and nothing more. It is the fruit of one that is saved, not a requirement of one about to be saved. You cannot find that in Scripture. If you had read my link you would find that explained.

Not quite, Amy--James is NOT saying that TRUE faith will produce works, as if he is contrasting some alleged "true faith" and "false faith".

Amy is right. Faith has an object. There is not true faith and false faith. The question is: What is the object of your faith? The demons had knowledge about God, but the object of their faith was not the saving grace of Christ. What is the object of your faith. Muslims have faith just as we do; one might even say it is saving faith, but misplaced. The object of their faith is put in Allah and not in Christ.

He doesn't add the modifiers 'true' and 'false' to distinguish allegedly two different KINDS of faith in this passage. What he is doing is using "faith" throughout the passage in a fairly limited sense, and that being of "intellectual assent" (to theological truth). [To see this is the case, and how well it fits the context of the passage, just substitute "intellectual assent" for "faith" or "believe" in this passage]. Such faith as intellectual assent is REAL, and is necessary (not bad or false), but is insufficient for salvation in and of itself. (This also seems to be the sense Peter is using "faith" in 2 Peter 1:5-11, when he states the believer must add to his "faith" "virtue, knowledge, self-control, etc"). Even demons have an "intellectual assent" to some theological truth (that God exists) and tremble.

Faith or belief has an object, and that is what makes the difference. I have explained that already. Understand that concept and your understanding should change. Demons never had the saving grace of Jesus Christ as the object of their faith.

On the otherhand Paul seems to use "faith" in a broader sense when contrasting this with the works of Law, and that of shorthand for "faith working through love" which is what he positively affirms actually avails for anything (Gal 5:6) as opposed to the works of the Law (or lack thereof).

Faith is faith. Paul does not use faith in any broader sense. He declares that a man is justified by faith and faith alone--if you understand the verse. In Ephesians 2:8,9 the same principle is taught and cannot be negated.

Nor is he saying that "dead faith" is really not faith at all. He gives the illustration using the example of a BODY without a spirit being dead. If you notice the BODY is a real BODY--it's not non-existent; it's real, but dead nonetheless. Though faith that is not accompanied by works is ultimately dead and cannot save, it being "intellectual assent" is nonetheless a real and necessary thing--just as a human BODY is a real and necessary thing to be a human being; but just not sufficient to be fully human.

Your illustration falls short, or your exegesis is not correct.
Death always means separation. When the spirit is separated from the body, the body is considered dead. Death is separation. A dead body has no life. It is useless or of no value.
Therefore faith without works is dead also.
Faith must not be separated from works or it becomes useless.
The result of faith is that it generates works.
There are many examples given of this.
Believers in the church will be kind to those in need. If you are truly a believer you will give to the poor and not turn him away, but help him.
What does it profit my brethren if man be destitute and you say unto him be warmed and filled notwithstanding you give him not those things which are needful. What does it profit. Faith without works is dead being alone.
It does not say that works is necessary to faith, but rather that faith produces works. It does not contradict Romans 4:1-5, a passage you should explain to us all.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

James is emphatically saying a MAN is JUSTIFIED (ie reckoned righteous) by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE.

DT if what you have said about this verse is true then that would contrdict these verse:

It's not what I have said about this verse; it's what the verse literally states itself:
"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only".

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Actually if you read the surrounding context (and indeed the wider Pauline context and the historical context in which his epistles were written) you'll realize that Paul's main concern was against the claims of the Judaizers who taught that Gentiles had to keep the Mosaic Law to be justified. The whole point of his extended argument in Romans (and Galatians), for instance, is that one does not have to keep the Mosaic Law to be saved or justified, as Christ fulfilled that Law when we could not. The point of the Law was to be a tudor until Christ came and to show fallen humanity their need for a savior, since we've all sinned and have fallen short of God's glory and could in no wise earn our way to heaven by keeping the entirety of the Mosaic Law perfect our whole lives. Christ fulfilled the Law and in Him what avails is not circumcision or uncircumcision (ie the works of the law or the lack thereof) but faith working in love (Gal 5:6)

Compare these veses with Eph. 2:8-10:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Indeed this is true. Salvation is a gift of God, which begins when we were first made alive together with Christ (Eph 2:5--notice the past tense; Paul is referring to the beginning of salvation, our spiritual resurrection with Christ) and this had nothing to do with any meritorious works of ours. And certainly the works that please Him result from this and are not the cause of our being in Christ in the first place (I have never claimed otherwise). Notice here too that Paul is addressing Gentiles (v11) and how they were brought into the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ (v 13) rather than any works they or those of the Circumcision could boast about. Since this passage refers back to the Gentile Christians initial spiritual resurrection with Christ (v.5) it has no bearing on the ongoing (or final) aspects of justification/salvation described by James and by Paul (Rom 2:5-10) or Christ (John 5:28-29) which most certainly involve works (which of course are the fruit of our being in Christ--John 15:1-6)

The point is these verse are dealing with Salvation, and specificly how that God see's our heart man cannot. However, in James, we are looking at faith from how man see's man. The key verse is:

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Whoa...did you notice the last part, which I bolded? James rhetorically asks if man's faith can SAVE him if he doesn't have works. His answer is basically no--faith without works is dead and doesn't ultimately "profit" for salvation. Salvation is in view here, so it's not merely about how man sees man. Besides when Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac, no other men were around--it was God who told Abraham: "for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me." (Genesis 22:12). Thus the passage in James is indeed about salvation and primarily about justification before GOD, not merely before men as many allege.

So the bottom line is that faith is "God dependance." First in Salvation and then in our Christian walk, which then allows God to do His work first in us and then thru us. [I]"We are His workmanship, created in Christ Unto good works." [/I](Eph. 2:10). :godisgood:

Why the dichotomy between "salvation" and our "Christian walk" as if the two are distinct? Salvation has a beginning, an ongoing reality, and a conclusion at the final judgement in which God will render to each according to his deeds including eternal life to does who work what is good (Romans 2:5,6). Of course we can't work what is good without depending on God. (I never claimed that we could). We must abide in the vine to bear fruit, but we must abide nonetheless. And Paul states we should be careful to maintain good works (ie they don't happen passively or automatically based merely on a previous one time decision to trust Christ) so that we may not be unfruitful (Titus 3:8,14). Paul warns the Corithians that they believe in vain if they don't hold fast what they've heard (1 Cor 15:1-2) and warns them in his second letter not to receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1). He also warns the Gentile believers, who were currently standing by faith (ie depending on God) that they could be "cut off' if they did not continue in the goodness of God (Romans 11:18-22)

 

[Doubting Thomas]

You are painting the word "justified" as meaning the same thing in every instance, when it doesn't. If you read this passage in context, it is clear that what James is saying is that one is vindicated when his faith produces works - not saved, but vindicated. Iow, the proof is in the pudding.

Marcia, look at verse 14 again:
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone has faith but does not have works? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?"
According to James, salvation is certainly in view. He is demonstrating if a person who has faith (doesn't say "has false faith" or "has pretend faith"; just "has faith") but doesn't have works, then his faith cannot profit for salvation. James is using faith in somewhat limited sense, in the sense of "intellectual assent", which is necessary but not sufficient for salvation--it must have works to complete it. Which of course is similar to Paul saying that what avails is faith working through love (Gal 5:6)

This passage in James is about how, once saved, one's works help grow the faith, they complete it. Otherwise, faith may save you but does not reveal itself in the works it should produce.

No Marcia, works certainly do complete faith (v22) but faith without works is dead (v17, 26) and cannot profit for salvation (v14).

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Set forth proof from the Bible that it isn't. Justification is more or less a legal term. A payment has been made. And the person is justified once and for all. There is no possible way that a person can continually be justified. The term is never used as a process, but always as an event.

Show me in the Scripture where it says justification is only a one-time, once for all event.

When God looks down at the believer he looks at him as already being justified or "just as if I never sinned."

The key is the believer. One who departs from God in an evil heart of unbelief (Heb 3:12), for instance, would no longer be a believer and no longer justified. Likewise with the the branch in Christ who doesn't abide and thus doesn't bear fruit and is thus cast off as a branch. (John 15)

It has been taken care of. The penalty has been paid. It never has to be paid again. It is a one time event.

Here you are confusing the objective work of Christ in the Atonement, which happened once ("the penalty was paid") with the justification of the believer which you have not proved is a one time, once for all event rather than an ongoing state of the believer insofar as he remains in Christ and bears fruit.

At some point in time a person is absolved or declared free of blame. Biblically, at the point of salvation the sinner is declared free of sin. He is absolved. His sins: past, present, and future are declared forgiven

There is no verse that says that at the moment one first accepts Christ all his future sins are resolved. None. In fact we must continue to confess our sins to receive cleansing and forgiveness for sins subsequent to our being joined to Christ (1 John 1:9) and have to walk in the light for the blood of Christ to continue cleansing us from sin (1 John 1:7)

"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God." The justification has already happened. The peace is in the present tense.

It's present tense for the believer, the one who stands (present tense) by faith (which works in love, it it's to avail for anything, according to Paul), not for the one who fails to continue in the goodness of God and is cut off (Romans 11:18-22)

No, that is not even logical. Is it logical to say that because I am born again I am still being born? This is your reasoning. I was born once. I was justified once.

Here you are confusing regeneration and justification. The two are related and but distinct. Regeneration happens once only. Justification happens at regeneration, is ongoing for the one who has works which completes his faith (James 2:22-24), and is concluded at the judgement when God renders eternal life for those remaining in Him who have worked what is good (by His grace) (Romans 2:5,6)

Sanctification and justification are two different processes.

I thought you said justification was NOT a "process" but a one time once for all event?

Justification is a one time event.

Something you've yet to prove.

Sanctification is an on-going process throughout the believer's life. It has nothing to do with justification. The act of justification puts one in Christ.

Actually regeneration puts one in Christ "For as many of your as were baptized in Christ have put on Christ" (Gal 3:27)

Paul, James, Peter, nor Jesus don't not teach what you suggest. You are reading a false doctrine into Scripture.

I let Paul, James, Peter, and Christ speak for themselves.

Good works is like a fruit of the Spirit. It comes as a result of those that are already saved.

True

The lack thereof doesn't take away someone's salvation.

No, the lack thereof show that someone hasn't continued to abide in Christ who IS our salvation.

I am sure that you have not continued in good works for 24 hours of the day each day of your life. You have sinned have you not? Does 1John 1:9 then become meaningless?

I am not sure what you are talking about. When I sin i confess and God cleanses me from all unrighteousness as He promises. It's for those who without biblical warrant believe that all one's FUTURE sins are already forgiven at the moment one first "accepts Christ" that 1 John 1:9 is meaningless.

It was once. Romans 4. Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness sake.

When was that? During the events recorded in Chapter 15?

We are made righteous by faith and faith alone.

We are MADE righteous by Christ through the work of the Spirit. Justification is to reckon righteous not to MAKE righteous.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I had said:
"So this indeed does NOT coflict with Paul's Gospel of grace. In fact, Paul wrote to the Galatians (5:6) that what actually AVAILS FOR ANYTHING is a FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE. Both Paul and James would agree that it's only when faith is accompanied by works of love that it avails or profits for salvation."

To which you replied...

Nonsense! Good works are a product of salvation and nothing more. It is the fruit of one that is saved, not a requirement of one about to be saved.

Sorry, I NEVER said good works are "a requirement of one about to be saved". You misread my post. I was not referring to man's initial moment of salvation (regeneration) when he is first joined to Christ. However, faith working in love is what avails for the believer's final salvation, as at the Judgement God will render to each man according to his deeds including eternal life to the one who has worked what is good. (Romans 2:5,6).

(Me): "Not quite, Amy--James is NOT saying that TRUE faith will produce works, as if he is contrasting some alleged "true faith" and "false faith"."

You..

Amy is right. Faith has an object. There is not true faith and false faith. The question is: What is the object of your faith? The demons had knowledge about God, but the object of their faith was not the saving grace of Christ. What is the object of your faith. Muslims have faith just as we do; one might even say it is saving faith, but misplaced. The object of their faith is put in Allah and not in Christ.

Sorry, the point of Jame's passage was not the object of one's faith, but that faith without works is dead (2:17,26) and cannot profit for salvation (2:14).

Me: "He doesn't add the modifiers 'true' and 'false' to distinguish allegedly two different KINDS of faith in this passage. What he is doing is using "faith" throughout the passage in a fairly limited sense, and that being of "intellectual assent" (to theological truth). [To see this is the case, and how well it fits the context of the passage, just substitute "intellectual assent" for "faith" or "believe" in this passage]. Such faith as intellectual assent is REAL, and is necessary (not bad or false), but is insufficient for salvation in and of itself. (This also seems to be the sense Peter is using "faith" in 2 Peter 1:5-11, when he states the believer must add to his "faith" "virtue, knowledge, self-control, etc"). Even demons have an "intellectual assent" to some theological truth (that God exists) and tremble."

You...

Faith or belief has an object, and that is what makes the difference. I have explained that already. Understand that concept and your understanding should change. Demons never had the saving grace of Jesus Christ as the object of their faith.

Again, the point of the passage is that faith without works is dead and cannot profit for salvation.

Me: "On the otherhand Paul seems to use "faith" in a broader sense when contrasting this with the works of Law, and that of shorthand for "faith working through love" which is what he positively affirms actually avails for anything (Gal 5:6) as opposed to the works of the Law (or lack thereof)."

You..

Faith is faith. Paul does not use faith in any broader sense.

Looking at the respective contexts, yeah, he does.

He declares that a man is justified by faith and faith alone--if you understand the verse.

Never does Paul state that a man is justified by faith alone.

[In Ephesians 2:8,9 the same principle is taught and cannot be negated.

Paul in Ephesians reminds his Gentile readers that they were saved (past tense--"made alive together with Christ" v5--ie when they were regenerated [see also Col 2:12,13]) by grace through faith and not by works, which I am not disagreeing with at all. This has no bearing on James who is describing the ongoing justification of the man whose works perfect his faith (2:22)

Me: "Nor is he saying that "dead faith" is really not faith at all. He gives the illustration using the example of a BODY without a spirit being dead. If you notice the BODY is a real BODY--it's not non-existent; it's real, but dead nonetheless. Though faith that is not accompanied by works is ultimately dead and cannot save, it being "intellectual assent" is nonetheless a real and necessary thing--just as a human BODY is a real and necessary thing to be a human being; but just not sufficient to be fully human."

Your illustration falls short, or your exegesis is not correct.

Baloney. I am using the same illustration James uses.

Death always means separation. When the spirit is separated from the body, the body is considered dead. Death is separation. A dead body has no life. It is useless or of no value.

When the spirit is separated from the body, the body doesn't immediatly pass into non-existence. It remains a real lifeless corpse. My illustration stands. Likewise faith without works is real in that it exists, but it's lifeless--just like a corpse.

Faith must not be separated from works or it becomes useless.

Of course. Thanks for agreeing with me.

The result of faith is that it generates works.

True, but this doesn't happen automatically or passively in the life of the believer, otherwise Paul would not have to tell Titus "that those who have believed in God (past tense) should be CAREFUL to MAINTAIN good works" (3:8) that they may not be unfruitful (v14). Likewise Christ wouldn't have to tell His disciples to abide in Him to bear fruit, if fruit-bearing was something that happened passively and automatically for every branch in Christ.

It does not say that works is necessary to faith, but rather that faith produces works.

To the contrary, works are necessary to complete faith (James 2:22) and faith without works cannot profit for salvation (2:14)

 

[Grace&Truth]

It's not what I have said about this verse; it's what the verse literally states itself:
"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only".

Actually if you read the surrounding context (and indeed the wider Pauline context and the historical context in which his epistles were written) you'll realize that Paul's main concern was against the claims of the Judaizers who taught that Gentiles had to keep the Mosaic Law to be justified. The whole point of his extended argument in Romans (and Galatians), for instance, is that one does not have to keep the Mosaic Law to be saved or justified, as Christ fulfilled that Law when we could not. The point of the Law was to be a tudor until Christ came and to show fallen humanity their need for a savior, since we've all sinned and have fallen short of God's glory and could in no wise earn our way to heaven by keeping the entirety of the Mosaic Law perfect our whole lives. Christ fulfilled the Law and in Him what avails is not circumcision or uncircumcision (ie the works of the law or the lack thereof) but faith working in love (Gal 5:6)

I agree with all that you said here, But please explain what you mean by faith working in love (Gal. 5:6)? Are you saying that our faith will produce works based on love? or Are you saying that when we exercise faith God produces love within us that works itself out in acts of charity etc.? And what of a backslidden Christian, if they are not working in love do they lose their salvation?

Indeed this is true. Salvation is a gift of God, which begins when we were first made alive together with Christ (Eph 2:5--notice the past tense; Paul is referring to the beginning of salvation, our spiritual resurrection with Christ) and this had nothing to do with any meritorious works of ours. And certainly the works that please Him result from this and are not the cause of our being in Christ in the first place (I have never claimed otherwise). Notice here too that Paul is addressing Gentiles (v11) and how they were brought into the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ (v 13) rather than any works they or those of the Circumcision could boast about.

These verses are not saying we are brought into the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Jesus- it is saying that now by the blood of Jesus we are both Jew and Gentile made a partaker of Christ's body (the church)

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Since this passage refers back to the Gentile Christians initial spiritual resurrection with Christ (v.5) it has no bearing on the ongoing (or final) aspects of justification/salvation described by James and by Paul (Rom 2:5-10) or Christ (John 5:28-29) which most certainly involve works (which of course are the fruit of our being in Christ--John 15:1-6)

Well yes it does because this is how one is Saved for all eternity. Again, are you saying that we begin Salvation without works but we must work to keep saved? And again if a one is backslidden and is not showing fruit in their life have they lost their Salvation or are they in danger of losing it?

Whoa...did you notice the last part, which I bolded? James rhetorically asks if man's faith can SAVE him if he doesn't have works. His answer is basically no--faith without works is dead and doesn't ultimately "profit" for salvation. Salvation is in view here, so it's not merely about how man sees man. Besides when Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac, no other men were around--it was God who told Abraham: "for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from Me." (Genesis 22:12). Thus the passage in James is indeed about salvation and primarily about justification before GOD, not merely before men as many allege.

I already explained this

Why the dichotomy between "salvation" and our "Christian walk" as if the two are distinct? Salvation has a beginning, an ongoing reality, and a conclusion at the final judgement in which God will render to each according to his deeds including eternal life to does who work what is good (Romans 2:5,6). Of course we can't work what is good without depending on God. (I never claimed that we could). We must abide in the vine to bear fruit, but we must abide nonetheless. And Paul states we should be careful to maintain good works (ie they don't happen passively or automatically based merely on a previous one time decision to trust Christ) so that we may not be unfruitful (Titus 3:8,14). Paul warns the Corithians that they believe in vain if they don't hold fast what they've heard (1 Cor 15:1-2) and warns them in his second letter not to receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1). He also warns the Gentile believers, who were currently standing by faith (ie depending on God) that they could be "cut off' if they did not continue in the goodness of God (Romans 11:18-22)

Why? Because as DHK has pointed out (several times) there is our Position in Christ. We are Justified (Saved) then there is our Santification which is our walk with the Lord. When we are Justified our standing before God is in Jesus' Righteousness not our own. When I believed I was cleansed of my sin (Jesus paid for my sin on the cross) and he gave me His righteousness, Done Deal. He also sealed me with His Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14). This is His promise that I am His for all eternity. However now as His I am to walk in what He has given me. So I am saved by Faith (I placed my full dependance on His finished work) now I am walking in Faith (in God dependance) as Christ is now living in me and is living thru me. That is what Gal. 2:20 says:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Grace/Truth...

I had said (about Romans 4:1-5): "Actually if you read the surrounding context (and indeed the wider Pauline context and the historical context in which his epistles were written) you'll realize that Paul's main concern was against the claims of the Judaizers who taught that Gentiles had to keep the Mosaic Law to be justified. The whole point of his extended argument in Romans (and Galatians), for instance, is that one does not have to keep the Mosaic Law to be saved or justified, as Christ fulfilled that Law when we could not. The point of the Law was to be a tudor until Christ came and to show fallen humanity their need for a savior, since we've all sinned and have fallen short of God's glory and could in no wise earn our way to heaven by keeping the entirety of the Mosaic Law perfect our whole lives. Christ fulfilled the Law and in Him what avails is not circumcision or uncircumcision (ie the works of the law or the lack thereof) but faith working in love (Gal 5:6)"

To which you replied...

I agree with all that you said here

Good, I am glad there is some agreement. :thumbsup:

But please explain what you mean by faith working in love (Gal. 5:6)? Are you saying that our faith will produce works based on love? or Are you saying that when we exercise faith God produces love within us that works itself out in acts of charity etc.?

I am merely saying what Paul is--faith needs to be working in love to avail for anything.

And what of a backslidden Christian, if they are not working in love do they lose their salvation?

If his love grows cold (Matt 24:12), and is not rekindled through repentence, then yes, he loses his salvation. Jesus said if we keep His commendments we will abide in His love (John 15:10), and John said "he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him" (1 John 3:24). John also stated that: "everyone who loves God is born of (lit., "stands begotten of") of God and knows (present tense) God. He who does not love does not know God." (1 John 4:7-8)

Me (regarding Eph 2:8-10): "Indeed this is true. Salvation is a gift of God, which begins when we were first made alive together with Christ (Eph 2:5--notice the past tense; Paul is referring to the beginning of salvation, our spiritual resurrection with Christ) and this had nothing to do with any meritorious works of ours. And certainly the works that please Him result from this and are not the cause of our being in Christ in the first place (I have never claimed otherwise). Notice here too that Paul is addressing Gentiles (v11) and how they were brought into the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ (v 13) rather than any works they or those of the Circumcision could boast about."

You...

These verses are not saying we are brought into the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Jesus- it is saying that now by the blood of Jesus we are both Jew and Gentile made a partaker of Christ's body (the church)

Well, the in the New Covenant, the chuch, both Jew and Gentile, is the Israel of God.


Me: "Since this passage refers back to the Gentile Christians initial spiritual resurrection with Christ (v.5) it has no bearing on the ongoing (or final) aspects of justification/salvation described by James and by Paul (Rom 2:5-10) or Christ (John 5:28-29) which most certainly involve works (which of course are the fruit of our being in Christ--John 15:1-6)"

You...

Well yes it does because this is how one is Saved for all eternity.

Your assuming once-saved-always-saved, which is unwarranted from this passage. Paul is referring the Gentile believers' past experience of being made alive with Christ (which occurs in baptism--see Colossians 2:12-13, and Romans 6:3-5), and salvation certainly remains a gift afterwards--there's nothing we can do to add to it to try to earn it. However, Paul is clear that one can believe in vain if he doesn't hold fast that gospel in which he stands and by which he is saved (1 Cor 15:1-2). He also teaches that is possible for believers to receive the grace of God in vain, as he warned the same church not to do such a thing (2 Cor 6:1). Certainly any works we do result from our being created in Christ Jesus for good works after our first being saved by grace through faith, but one can fall from grace (Gal 5:4) and can shipwreck his faith (1 Tim 1:19).

Again, are you saying that we begin Salvation without works but we must work to keep saved?

We must continue standing by faith (Rom 11) and thus continue to abide in Christ in order to remain saved (John 15), and as we are abiding in Christ we will bear fruit which is the proof that we are in Christ. So when James is saying works perfects one's faith and thus justifies a man this is analogous the one's fruit (works of love) being a result of one's active, abiding faith in Christ.

And again if a one is backslidden and is not showing fruit in their life have they lost their Salvation or are they in danger of losing it?

They are at the very least in danger of losing it unless they repent. (John 15:6). (However, there is certainly room for both discipline [Heb 12:5-11] in the sphere of grace as there is also room for growth in grace--in fact James even states that God gives more grace--4:6).

Peter states that we must diligently add to our faith: virtue, knowledge, self-control, patience, godliness, kindness, and love in order that we become neither barren nor UNFRUITFUL in our knowledge of Christ; so that we never stumble; make our calling and election sure; and finally to have an entrance supplied to us into Christ's everlasting kingdom (2 Peter 1:5-11). So there is some active effort on our behalf, but we can only do this because God's DIVINE POWER has first given us all things at pertain to life and godliness in our knowledge of Him (2 Peter 1:3)

Me :"Why the dichotomy between "salvation" and our "Christian walk" as if the two are distinct? Salvation has a beginning, an ongoing reality, and a conclusion at the final judgement in which God will render to each according to his deeds including eternal life to does who work what is good (Romans 2:5,6). Of course we can't work what is good without depending on God. (I never claimed that we could). We must abide in the vine to bear fruit, but we must abide nonetheless. And Paul states we should be careful to maintain good works (ie they don't happen passively or automatically based merely on a previous one time decision to trust Christ) so that we may not be unfruitful (Titus 3:8,14). Paul warns the Corithians that they believe in vain if they don't hold fast what they've heard (1 Cor 15:1-2) and warns them in his second letter not to receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1). He also warns the Gentile believers, who were currently standing by faith (ie depending on God) that they could be "cut off' if they did not continue in the goodness of God (Romans 11:18-22)"

You...

Why? Because as DHK has pointed out (several times) there is our Position in Christ. We are Justified (Saved) then there is our Santification which is our walk with the Lord.

You and DHK and others assume that justification is the sum total of our (one time, once-for-all) salvation, and that sanctification is something that happens afterwards. However, I've yet to see any scriptural evidence to support this. For instance I have yet to find that passage in Paul's epistles (or elsewhere in the NT) that says to effect: "You were justified once for all when you first accepted Christ and now what follows is your sanctification". To the contrary, Paul reminds the Corinthians believers that they were (past tense) "washed, sanctified, and justified" in that order (1 Cor 6:11). And this merely refers to what had happened to the Corinthians when they first came to be in Christ--it doesn't say anything about the ongoing realities of progressive sanctification and ongoing justification (which James states involves the works which perfect one's faith) that is described elsewhere in Scripture.

When we are Justified our standing before God is in Jesus' Righteousness not our own. When I believed I was cleansed of my sin (Jesus paid for my sin on the cross) and he gave me His righteousness, Done Deal.

Thus is your assertion but you haven't demonstrated "once-justified-always-justified".

He also sealed me with His Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14). This is His promise that I am His for all eternity. However now as His I am to walk in what He has given me.

But you are assuming the seal can't be broken. However our relationship to the Spirit is dynamic. We can either walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16), sow to the Spirit (rather than the flesh) (Gal 6:8-9),be filled with the Spirit, and by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh (Romans 8:13) or we may grieve the Spirit (Eph 4:30), quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19) or ultimately insult the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:29).

I am saved by Faith (I placed my full dependance on His finished work) now I am walking in Faith (in God dependance) as Christ is now living in me and is living thru me. That is what Gal. 2:20 says:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

But if one ceases to abide in Christ and ceases to continue standing by faith he will be but off from Christ and no longer have Christ living in him.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, look at verse 14 again:
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone has faith but does not have works? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?"
According to James, salvation is certainly in view. He is demonstrating if a person who has faith (doesn't say "has false faith" or "has pretend faith"; just "has faith") but doesn't have works, then his faith cannot profit for salvation. James is using faith in somewhat limited sense, in the sense of "intellectual assent", which is necessary but not sufficient for salvation--it must have works to complete it. Which of course is similar to Paul saying that what avails is faith working through love (Gal 5:6)


No Marcia, works certainly do complete faith (v22) but faith without works is dead (v17, 26) and cannot profit for salvation (v14).

This is a letter to believers, so they are already saved. I heard an intense exegetical lecture on James by my NT prof who went over all these problematic passages. A "dead faith" does not mean one is not saved; it means that your faith is useless without works. James gives an example later of someone telling a hungry person, "be warm and filled," but then you do nothing for that person. The point here is not that the person is not saved, but that they are making faith worthless when they don't walk the talk, so to speak.

You, like the Mormons and so many, miss the whole point of James, which is that faith shows itself in works and having saving faith is not the be-all end-all of Christianity.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Constantly Doubting Thomas...

You asked...

"Show me in the Scripture where it says justification is only a one-time, once for all event.

Here's one of the billions...

"Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death and into life.

And here is another...

"For by grace you have been saved, through faith. and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

And here is another...

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus

I could go on and on until a week from thursday, but you get the idea.

I hope.

 

[Alive in Christ]

EDIT

Accidental duplicate post