DT is bang on the money here: justification is but one part of our salvation, as Augustine clearly showed in Grace and Nature. Justification/ regeneration may be monergist, but salvation is synergist in pathology. I would challenge anyone here to demonstrate to the contrary from Scripture.
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What do Baptists and Catholics have in common?
- Thread starter Peggy
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If a man is justified in a court of law, what just happened?
He's declared not guilty for whatever past crime of which he has been accused. Does that mean he's then free to go out and commit more crime?
He is declared not guilty for the crime committed.
Man's crime is sin against God, for which he is condemned for eternity.
Christ paid for that crime by atoning for it on the cross.
By accepting the payment that Christ offers in my place, I am justified--declared innocent, or not guilty of all crimes of which I have been accused (past, present and future), for I have been given eternal life.
"The gift of God is eternal life." (Romans 6:23)
My sins have been eternally forgiven in the light of the gift of eternal life that has been given me. This is not a license to sin. It is now a relationship with Christ. Now if I sin, though my sin has been forgiven in relation to eternity (I will never be separated from my Father), I need only to confess that sin to restore the fellowship with my father, as a child needs to confess his wrong doing with his parents to restore a right relationship with them.
Justification absolves one of all guilt and puts one in the position that he enters into the family of God. God will never cast him out. The one that is born cannot be "unborn."
Emily25069
New Member
The one that is born cannot be "unborn."
True.
However, if my own born son fails to remain in relationship with me, or is continually disobedient or continually rebellious towards me-telling me even that he wants nothing to do with me.
well...
He wont be a son of mine unless there is repentence.
What if repentence never comes?
True.
However, if my own born son fails to remain in relationship with me, or is continually disobedient or continually rebellious towards me-telling me even that he wants nothing to do with me.
well...
He wont be a son of mine unless there is repentence.
What if repentence never comes?
Emily, it doesn't matter if you disown your child or even kill him (God forbid), you cannot change his genetic makeup. You cannot change his DNA. He forever will be yours, no matter what you do. And that is the way it is with God. His promises are sure.
For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Marcia
Active Member
DT seems to have a Catholic understanding of justification, because he said that regeneration and justification are different. However, justification, which is the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, takes place when one believes and is regenerated/indwelt by the Holy Spirit/born again. The Catholic view of justification is that it is a process, whereas non-Catholics call that sanctification.
Justification upon faith: saved from the penalty of sin (immediate upon faith)
Sanctification: saved from the power of sin (ongoing process until one dies)
Glorification (after death and resurrected body): saved from the presence of sin
So salvation in its broader meaning - that of deliverance - is a process, but justification is instantaneous and immediate upon faith. I think that the word "saved" is overused by many evangelicals and this confuses the issue. In fact, in my ministry, I usually do not use it at all. I speak of justification and regeneration and/or being born again and/or righteousness imputed by Christ upon faith.
Bad example because parents disinherit their children all the time. A child has no right to inherit from his parents. The only way this can happen is for the parent to permit the inheritance by not disinheriting the child.
DHK, I'm curious about the fellowship thing. You say you need to confess your sin to restore fellowship with the Father and I agree. But what happens if you don't confess that sin and you die out of fellowship with the Father? You have made it pretty clear that you don't go to Hell. You also don't believe in Purgatory, so that leaves only Heaven as your destination. That being the case, why bother to confess your sins at all? You go to Heaven if you do confess; you go to Heaven if you don't confess.
My example is not bad. In fact it is very Biblical.
Every person is born into the family of Satan or the devil, not of God.
Thus the command of Jesus: You must be born of again. You must become a child of God, born into his family. Once born, He will never disinherit you. He cannot, just as a father cannot change the genetic make-up of his child. The child will always be his not matter what he does.
At the time of salvation the Lord gives us eternal life. At what point in time does eternal cease from being eternal. If that were possible then the one who promised it would be a liar, for eternal would only be temporary. But the Lord did not promise temporary life, but eternal life. Did God lie?
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
The above verse (Rom.8:1) speaks to our salvation. We cannot be condemned. Our sins, after trusting Christ, are forgiven: past present and future. I have become a child of God, just as I am a child of my earthly father and nothing can ever change that.
However, there are things that I can do that can put a barrier between my father and I. I may make him angry by some sinful act. If that sin is not confessed the relationship with him will remain strained and (being human) may even get worse. The right thing to do is confess my wrong-doing and get things right, so that my relationship with my father will be right again, and we will be on good terms. The fact that he is my father never changes, and cannot change.
The fact that I am a child of God will never change. I am justified. I am born again. That will never change. The transaction was made. My sins have been atoned for. I have accepted the sacrifice of Christ on my behalf. If I sin, it puts a strain on my relationship with Jesus Christ. It doesn't affect my salvation, only my fellowship. If I don't confess my sin (1John 1:9), that sweet fellowship with my Lord is not there. We need to confess our sins to the Lord, (not a priest or man). And then our relationship will be made right again. I will never lose the salvation he has given me. Eternal will never be turned into temporary. If that were even possible, then God would be lying.
Trotter
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We confess to God for the same reason I apologize to my wife... I love her and I want our relationship to be as close as possible. Sin will not sever the tie of salvation, but it does create distance between us and God. While we retain the imputed righteousness of Christ, the sins we commit become a wall between God and ourselves. This wall is torn down and our intimate fellowship is restored when we confess out sins, agreeing with God that they were wrong and that we fell short of His standards. Yes, I do the same thing with my wife when I mess up, and our fellowship is also restored.Zenas said:
To die outside of intimate fellowship with God would not be ideal. I would prefer to step into His presence with my slate completely clean. I see the times I am out of fellowship with God as lost opportunities, lost rewards that I could have had to lay at the feet of my Savior. I want to be able to give Him back this small token to show Him how much His gift means to me. I realize it isn't much, but I'll not be taking gold or silver with me when I leave this life... only that which I have sent on ahead will I be able to give to the Lord.
I would like to add a comment to Trotter's post. To the unbeliever, being out of fellowship with God means nothing. They don't care. But for believers, being out of fellowship with God is painful. A believer cannot be happy in that state. He will be continually under conviction of the Holy Spirit.
And while he is alive on this earth, he is subject to God's chastisement, which is always very unpleasant.
And while he is alive on this earth, he is subject to God's chastisement, which is always very unpleasant.
DKH and Trotter, just to be perfectly clear, assume I am saved. Assume also that in a moment of weakness I have a meretricious tryst with a woman. The next day she threatens to expose this affair unless I pay her $50,000 within twenty-four hours. I don't want to be exposed but I don't have the money, so I rob a bank. During the attempted robbery I am shot to death and arrive at the pearly gates with all this baggage. Are you saying I would be invited to come on in to Heaven, even with the baggage? And please don't bring out that old refrain about not being really saved. Go back and read the first line of my hypothetical. Also remember 1 John 1:8, which was directed toward Christians.
You will find that God declared Lot, despite all the wickedness that he was caught up in, was declared "a just man."
Yes, I believe you would. The fact is that even the saved sin. We all are guilty, even of serious sins. Many die before they have the chance to repent. The only reason to question a person's salvation would be if you did not die and continued in a life style of either immorality or robbing banks.
Amy, I was writing while your were posting. I agree with you completely on this, and that is why I tried to make my hypothetical happen really fast before God came tugging on my heart. However, I believe many people who think they are saved go cavalierly through their lives, committing sins here and there with feelings of guilt but doing nothing about it because they are confident in their salvation. False confidence. On the other hand, if they believed they would be shut out of Heaven if they died with unforgiven sin, they would be on their knees seeking forgiveness. That is why eternal security is not only a false doctrine, it is a dangerous doctrine. Not dangerous for you, but dangerous for those who are weaker or spiritually less mature.
Trotter
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And I would completely agree. They may have walked an aisle and said a prayer, but they knelt down a lost and unsaved sinner and got back up a lost and unsaved sinner. I know many who are in this exact condition, fully convinced they are squared with "the guy upstairs" but have never shown any evidence whatsoever of actually meeting God.Zenas said:
These same people would still think they were OK. Why? Because they really don't care.Zenas said:
Peter warns us not to use our freedom as a covering for for evil:
Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. (1Pe 2:16 ESV)
Why would Peter say this if this evil would strip us of this very freedom in Christ?
Yes, the doctrine of eternal security can be used by those who would like to claim the name of Christ and still be able to live like the devil himself. Even Jesus Himself said we would always have tares among the wheat. But just because some of those who will hear the words, "Depart from Me, I never knew you," want to hide behind it is no reason to toss it out the window.
If I had to live in fear that I would slip up and sin and die before I could be re-saved I would have never became a Christian. Why? Because that would be a religion of fear and dread and completely foreign to the concept of grace and forgiveness. By saying that one's sin could sever the bonds of salvation is saying that what Christ did on the cross was not sufficient, that His sacrifice is only good as long as we live up to God's standards. That, my friend, is a salvation of works and not of grace. If it takes one's own power to stay saved then that person was never saved to begin with.
Marcia
Active Member
Yes, you get into heaven because of Christ's righteousness, not yours, assuming you were saved to begin with before this episode.
However, I do not think a mature Christian would rob the bank - an immature one, maybe. Robbing a bank is pretty drastic and even for non-Christians is not easy. A mature Christian would confess and let the exposure humble him and bring him closer to Christ. That would be very painful, but it's a consequence of his actions.
Grace&Truth
New Member
We cannot be cut off from Christ, we are sealed until the day of redemption (meaning our final redemption). Justified means we are saved (redeemed) from the penalty of sin, Santification means we are being saved from the power of sin (in this present life) and Gloification is when we will be saved (redeemed) from the very presense of sin. It is all of God "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith"- Heb. 12:2
Ah, yes! The old never was saved, faulty from the first mantra. My personal favorite? Never really saved. I can tell you without qualification that I would have done a lot of things in my life that I refrained from doing only because I believe they might affect my eternal destiny. I've also done some that have brought me to my knees seeking forgiveness because without it I am sure I would go to Hell. So don't try to tell me people don't think about it.
Sorry, Marcia, I can't agree. You get saved because of Christ's righteousness and by grace through faith. But we stay saved through our own righteousness. The apostle Paul told us, "Work out your own salvation." He also said, "I discipline my body and make it my slave so that . . . I myself will not be disqualified."
Most have thought of doing things in their life but have refrained. Why?
1. Your reason is out of fear--the fear of losing your eternal salvation. I believe it is spiritually unhealthy to live in a state of fear. Christ did not want us to live like that.
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
--The fear of losing one's salvation goes against Scripture.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Perfect love casts out fear.
The reason I have refrained from doing things that would be wrong in my life are two-fold:
1.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constrains us; because we judge thus, that one died for all, therefore all died.
--Because I love Christ, and the love that I know that He has for me compels me to go and serve him.
2.
2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are revealed to God; and I hope that we are revealed also in your consciences.
--Because someday I will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give account of the works that I have done, good and bad. "The fear of God" That picture of the awesome holiness of God drives me to go and persuade others to become Christians.
The prime motivating factors are: love and the holiness of God, but especially love.
I don't live in a state of fear.
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