What do people in heaven.....

[Marcia]

Angles know whats going on the earth. These Martyrs obviously know that justice has not been fulfilled. Both Martyrs and Angles are in heaven so they can just as easily have seen it for themselves. No big deal.

Men are not angles, nor angels.

And we are told specifically in the Bible that angels at certain points are watching.

 

[Marcia]

How? How can they "tell"?
The evidence is they know. If this knowledge were from God, it would be complete and He wouldn't be telling them to wait.
Since Christ IS 100% human too, it is not a stretch for those who pass away and are told will be like Him to witness circumstances that align with His will. I don't believe He allows them to witness heinous acts of sin, but maybe He does if it allows them to praise Him all that much more for redeeming them from that.

We don't know how they know so assuming it's because they know what is happening on earth is really stretching it.

Do you want to be looking at things on earth from heaven? I think out focus will be on Christ.

The bottom line is that there is no support for this.

 

[Marcia]

Consider Jeremiah 31:15:
This was fulfilled in Matthew 2:18. Why is Rachel weeping if she is unaware of the holocaust transpiring on the earth?

Are you saying this passage is talking about Rachel weeping in heaven? That's not what it says. It's referring to the OT passage and showing it foreshadowed what happened in Matt. 2.

 

[Zenas]

Are you saying this passage is talking about Rachel weeping in heaven? That's not what it says. It's referring to the OT passage and showing it foreshadowed what happened in Matt. 2.

Exactly, and Rachel is weeping because her children are no more. When Jeremiah wrote this, Rachel had been dead more than 1,000 years. So why would she be weeping if she couldn't see that her children were no more? Jeremiah understood that Rachel would be aware of this tragedy.

 

[Marcia]

Exactly, and Rachel is weeping because her children are no more. When Jeremiah wrote this, Rachel had been dead more than 1,000 years. So why would she be weeping if she couldn't see that her children were no more? Jeremiah understood that Rachel would be aware of this tragedy.

I was going to say this is a poetic metaphor but decided to look it up. Well, the NET bible and probably other commentators agree with that.

Traditionally, Rachel’s tomb was located near there at a place called Zelzah (1 Sam 10:2). Rachel was the mother of Joseph and Benjamin and was very concerned about having children because she was barren (Gen 30:1-2) and went to great lengths to have them (Gen 30:3, 14-15, 22-24). She was the grandmother of Ephraim and Manasseh which were two of the major tribes in northern Israel. Here Rachel is viewed metaphorically as weeping for her “children,” the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh, who had been carried away into captivity in 722 b.c.

To think this means Rachel is in heaven literally weeping is really out there.

 

[Alcott]

Men are not angles, nor angels.

Shades of Pope Gregory [who, legend has it, was shown a couple of Angles (Tacitus' "anglii"), asked what they were called, and he said they have 'angelic' faces].

Years ago, in a Bible study session, the guy who taught made a written page to go along with our discussion, and twice he made that mistake and wrote angel as "angle." and it was noticed and chucked about. The passage was about Hezekiah and the angels he saw to inspire to go on and fight. Then we had prayer time, and I was to be the 3rd and last one to pray vocally. I went through some of the things we had 'shared,' then added, "We have our trials, our illnesses, our family and business problems... these things are our "enemies," and we pray that we will always, like Hezekiah in our passage, trust you to provide the angle by which our enemies will be conquered." A woman seated next to me, who I did not know at that time, burst out laughing loudly and could not stop. Sure, the pun was intentional, but I didn't know it would completely crack somebody up :laugh: .

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Men are not angles, nor angels.

And we are told specifically in the Bible that angels at certain points are watching.

I never said they were. However, we're talking about placement and it seems to me that if they can view things on earth why can't we? Plus Zenas makes a good point about Rachel. And the bible doesn't say only at certain points do angles know whats going on. Its actually better to assume they can assertain what is going on and intervine at times.

 

[Marcia]

I never said they were. However, we're talking about placement and it seems to me that if they can view things on earth why can't we? Plus Zenas makes a good point about Rachel. And the bible doesn't say only at certain points do angles know whats going on. Its actually better to assume they can assertain what is going on and intervine at times.

I totally disagree about the point on Rachel! I do not think the passage is saying that Rachel is literally weeping in heaven. Nor do others.

I note you have the "angles" thing going on, too. :laugh:

I have never denied that the angels know what is going on, at least in part. The Bible is clear on that, however. It is not clear on dead people knowing what is going on here.

 

[Marcia]

Shades of Pope Gregory [who, legend has it, was shown a couple of Angles (Tacitus' "anglii"), asked what they were called, and he said they have 'angelic' faces].

Years ago, in a Bible study session, the guy who taught made a written page to go along with our discussion, and twice he made that mistake and wrote angel as "angle." and it was noticed and chucked about. The passage was about Hezekiah and the angels he saw to inspire to go on and fight. Then we had prayer time, and I was to be the 3rd and last one to pray vocally. I went through some of the things we had 'shared,' then added, "We have our trials, our illnesses, our family and business problems... these things are our "enemies," and we pray that we will always, like Hezekiah in our passage, trust you to provide the angle by which our enemies will be conquered." A woman seated next to me, who I did not know at that time, burst out laughing loudly and could not stop. Sure, the pun was intentional, but I didn't know it would completely crack somebody up :laugh: .

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I totally disagree about the point on Rachel! I do not think the passage is saying that Rachel is literally weeping in heaven. Nor do others.

I note you have the "angles" thing going on, too. :laugh:

I have never denied that the angels know what is going on, at least in part. The Bible is clear on that, however. It is not clear on dead people knowing what is going on here.

Well, I don't believe the heavenly Jerusalem has actual (literal) gold streets. So we're even. angel, angle I always mess them up. I'm a bad speller and a bad typist so its either or.

 

[webdog]

Well, I don't believe the heavenly Jerusalem has actual (literal) gold streets. So we're even. angel, angle I always mess them up. I'm a bad speller and a bad typist so its either or.

Curious why you don't think the streets are literal...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Curious why you don't think the streets are literal...

For the same reason that Marcia doesn't believe Rachel or Rebecca's tears are real.

 

[Zenas]

For those who have shown interest in Rachel, it looks like she is back and is assisting the Israeli troops in the Gaza war. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3661283,00.html I'm somewhat skeptical but it is still very interesting.

 

[OldRegular]

Just read through the thread tonight. From what I read it looks like the ladies Marcia, Scarlett O, and Amy have the best of the argument. Jim1999 in post #23 gives the reason why those in heaven cannot see what is happening on earth. Heaven is a place of joy. There could be no joy for those in heaven seeing what is happening on earth. I admire Albert Mohler very much but believe he is wrong on this one.

The only Scripture I know of that supports my conclusion, other than the argument Scarlett O presented from Hebrews, is a passage from Revelation.

Revelation 21:1-4
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Now I realize this is a description of life in the New Heavens and New Earth, however, it is not rational to believe that God will allow the Saints in heaven to experience sadness or distress until after the resurrection. Again, if the Saints in heaven could see the situation on earth or the sinful life of their loved ones they could not be happy and heaven is a place of Joy, just as Jim said.