What does "The Limited Atonement" actually proclaim? What are the Scriptural Proofs?

[Brightfame52]

Limited particular redemption is taught here Rev 14:1-5

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

One commentator wrote:

(Eph 1:4 KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Did you see that? God chose His children to be holy and blameless before the foundation of the world.

(Rev 14:1-5 KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. {2} And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: {3} And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. {4} These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. {5} And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The 144,000 is a figurative number which is a representation of all the true believers on earth. These verses speak of the Christians in heaven before the lamb and notice their condition: redeemed, no guile in their mouth, without fault, they follow the Lamb, not defiled by false religion (women), we are chaste virgins. Ephesians 1:4 has given us insight into the character of the believer before birth. If we are made holy and blameless before God, then there is only one way this can be accomplished, and that is if our sins were paid for before the foundations of the world. Do we have Biblical evidence for such a statement? We sure do!

(Heb 4:3 KJV) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

(Rev 13:8 KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

(Rev 17:8 KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The Fullness of the Atonement

notice Rev 14 vs 3-4 these are not ethnic jews as some erroneously tell us, but they were redeemed from the earth and from among men

Those virgins are non other than the chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 which are people of all nations

 

[37818]

I am persuaded the interpretation called limited atonement is a wrong interpretation of Holy Scriptures.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You really do not have any scripture that clearly supports your view do you.

What Scripture do you have that supports your view?

You have to read into the text, that's eisegesis, which depends upon your subjective interpretation of the text. It is no wonder that you have such a bad understanding of the biblical text, you think you have to correct what the Holy Spirit inspired.

You have not provided any objective interpretation of the text. If there's one thing worse than eisegesis, it is no "gesis" at all which is what you have provided.

sheep G4263 elect G1588 You seem to think that Holy Spirit is not capable of knowing the difference between sheep and elect. But then again it does seem that you do have that problem.

A sheep is a mammal of the ovine genus. Is that what you think our Lord was referring to in John 10?

 

[Brightfame52]

These two verses blow a hole in your errant view. You should trust what the bible says BF not what some man tells you the bible says.

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Both of those scriptures are in regards to limited atonement, Christ died only for them Justified by Faith

 

[Brightfame52]

I am persuaded the interpretation called limited atonement is a wrong interpretation of Holy Scriptures.

Limited Atonement is part of the Gospel of Gods Grace

 

[37818]

Limited Atonement is part of the Gospel of Gods Grace

This is the interpretation that I cannot believe to be true.

 

[Silverhair]

What Scripture do you have that supports your view?

Martin you should be a bit more specific as to what view you are questioning.

BF had said Christ was the propitiation only for the elect.

My response
The bible tells who Christ died for:
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all,...
1Ti 4:10 ...the living God, who is the Savior of all men,...
Rom 5:6 ...in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 ...while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

And unless you think some are excluded from this:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Even though all men have sinned God still desired that they turn to Him in faith so as to be saved.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That is why He sent His son
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Those that trust in the risen Son will be saved:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

You have not provided any objective interpretation of the text. If there's one thing worse than eisegesis, it is no "gesis" at all which is what you have provided.

Which text Martin?

Since I have seen you present errant views I would have to conclude that you utilize eisegesis in your bible study.

A sheep is a mammal of the ovine genus. Is that what you think our Lord was referring to in John 10?

If you do not have serous questions to ask then say nothing. When you ask dumb questions it just makes you look dumb.

 

[Silverhair]

Both of those scriptures are in regards to limited atonement, Christ died only for them Justified by Faith

How many times must you be shown the truth of scripture before you will accept it?

The bible tells who Christ died for:
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all,...
1Ti 4:10 ...the living God, who is the Savior of all men,...
Rom 5:6 ...in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 ...while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

And unless you think some are excluded from this:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Even though all men have sinned God still desired that they turn to Him in faith so as to be saved.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That is why He sent His son
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Those that trust in the risen Son will be saved:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

 

[Brightfame52]

This is the interpretation that I cannot believe to be true.

okay but thats telling me you cannot believe the Gospel to be true !

 

[JesusFan]

okay but thats telling me you cannot believe the Gospel to be true !

Bible stated that Jesus died for the sins of the many, but not the all?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

The bible tells who Christ died for:
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all,...
1Ti 4:10 ...the living God, who is the Savior of all men,...
Rom 5:6 ...in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 ...while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Elementary they are the elect

And unless you think some are excluded from this:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Even though all without exception have sinned, but that scripture is about the elect

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

The elect

Even though all men have sinned God still desired that they turn to Him in faith so as to be saved.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The elect

That is why He sent His son
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The elect saved world Jesus saved

Those that trust in the risen Son will be saved:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

The elect

 

[Brightfame52]

Bible stated that Jesus died for the sins of the many, but not the all?

Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[JesusFan]

Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

That seems to confirm Limited Atonement, eh?

 

[DaveXR650]

If God knows everything then he knows who will be saved. So God had to have in mind each and all of those who will benefit from the atonement. In that sense the atonement was specifically for them, the elect. But does that mean that at the time Christ died there was something done that forever locked out millions from redemption for the sole reason that God chose not to have Christ die for them? I say no and a lot of Calvinists say the same. That's why you have the familiar saying "Christ's death was sufficient for all but efficient only for the elect". Or you have the Marrow Men Calvinists saying "Christ has died" and you can come and be saved.

Notice the Marrow Men said "Christ has died" and not "Christ has died for you" to be proclaimed generally to everyone because they were Calvinists. Still, there are a lot of serious men who had no trouble saying "Christ died for you" to everyone. J.C. Ryle is one example.

Bottom line is that we have no way of understanding how it is to be in God's position of knowing absolutely what is going to happen. When Christ died God knew that a Bill Smith would not believe and would not be saved therefore Christ did not die for his sins in the same way he did for someone who will be saved. (This is true no matter what your view of determinism or free will is.) What we do have is the direct promise that everyone who comes to Christ will be saved. Therefore in that sense the atonement is not limited.

I see no problem in telling people "Christ died for you" if by that you mean that he can forgive your sins if you come to him. We have that as a direct promise. But if you are telling people that "Christ has died for you" and by that you mean that all their sins are already forgiven - well, is that really scriptural? You are almost circling back around to where the hyper-Calvinists are where they say you are just helping the elect people discover that they are elect! The only difference is you include more people. So maybe the moderate Calvinist position where the atonement is specific and yet the offer is really open to all is a good way to think about this.

 

[Brightfame52]

@DaveXR650

But does that mean that at the time Christ died there was something done that forever locked out millions from redemption for the sole reason that God chose not to have Christ die for them?

Christs Death was limited to the elect, the rest He purposed to punish them for their sins, so Christ shed no blood for them.

 

[DaveXR650]

Christs Death was limited to the elect, the rest He purposed to punish them for their sins, so Christ shed no blood for them.

I don't have a problem with that but let me ask you this. If someone comes to Christ by faith will they be received by Christ and forgiven of their sins?

 

[Brightfame52]

I don't have a problem with that but let me ask you this. If someone comes to Christ by faith will they be received by Christ and forgiven of their sins?

If someone comes to Christ in Faith, they were saved/forgiven by Christ already, regenerated by the Spirit already, already accepted in Him, and so Christ had died for him.

If Christ didnt die for a person, they will never come to Him in Faith, never will be forgiven

 

[37818]

okay but thats telling me you cannot believe the Gospel to be true !

My inline signature here on the baptistboard quotes the gospel!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My response
The bible tells who Christ died for:
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all,...

If Christ is the ransom for all, then all are ransomed. Is that what you believe?

1Ti 4:10 ...the living God, who is the Savior of all men,...

If God is the Saviour of all men, then all men are saved. Is that what you believe?

Rom 5:6 ...in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

If Christ died for all the ungodly (which I think is what you are suggesting), then every ungodly person who ever lived has been saved. Is that what you believe?
If you don't believe these things, then, whether you like it or not, you believe in a limited atonement. All we need to decide is whether it is men or God who limit the atonement. Do men save themselves, or does God save them?

Rom 5:8 ...while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Paul is writing to Christians, those who are loved by God (Romans 1:6), so of course Christ died for them.
It is your failure to understand that 'all' does not always mean every single person that is your main problem, but unfortunately you will not be told.
Instead, you constantly tell people that they don't believe the Bible, which is rather like telling them that they are not saved, and is,, I think, against the rules of this board. I do not accuse you of of not believing the Bible - I'm sure you do - but I do accuse you of not understanding it properly.

 

[DaveXR650]

If someone comes to Christ in Faith, they were saved/forgiven by Christ already, regenerated by the Spirit already, already accepted in Him, and so Christ had died for him.

I don't agree with your chain of logic but I don't think there is really a lot of difference. Like I said earlier, if God says something is going to happen at a future date and time it for certain shall happen. The only difference is that I don't believe it will happen until it happens. And, I think there is some place for human free will, even if the place is only negative. One who is not saved is at the worst, left to follow their own path of sin by their own choice. At the worst, they were given some light, and some grace, and refused or spurned the grace they were given. I do not believe there is any positive effort or actual desire on God's part that someone not be saved or be hardened, unless such hardening be a result of judgement for previous attitudes or actions.

If Christ didnt die for a person, they will never come to Him in Faith, never will be forgiven

This is the biggie isn't it. Your statement is correct but are you willing to say it like this: If they come to Him in faith, then they will certainly be saved and forgiven on promise of God. (While fully agreeing and accepting the fact that Christ did die for that person and that they are elect.)