What Dr. James P. Boyce thought about Arminians

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I believe I have touched on your main question that you raised.

I don't think you have. I understand your point about "prognosis" even though I believe you are misstating your case and the meaning of the word. The lexical sourcess support me, not you on the meaning of "foreknowledge." But be that as it may, you have not asnwered the question. If God "foreknew the determinations of the heart" (as you said), and knew this in eternity past, then does that man have a free choice? Can he change his mind? What if circumstances in life work out differently and something happens to lead him to a change of mind. Can he do that? You must answer "No he cannot" or impugn for foreknowledge of God. Once you answer "no," you have taken away man's free will and you have a God who creates people that he knows have no chance of being saved (becuase the circumstances will not change). Therefore, God creates people intending to send them to hell. Yet that is the God of Calvinism that you deplore. The reality is that your God is at the same place, he simply is not in control of it.

I welcome also your response to my post dated June 6, 2002 sent at 5:51 p.m. Most often people do not respond to things they cannot in good conscience refute.

I and many others have refuted your comments on Rom 9 many times in good conscience. You have misunderstood the passage. What else is there to say? You repeat your assertion that Pharoah first hardened his own heart when Scripture explicitly contradicts you, telling us that God made the first move. Rom 9 gives us the reason: So that God could show his power.

Electing certain events in human beings lives is clearly understandable, but not in such weighty matters as people's never dying souls. In this most serious dimension He leaves this matter to individual people.

So he arranges events that he knows will produce responses, emotions, attitudes, choices, etc. but he leaves the choice to individuals?? Ray, that does not make sense. A choice is not made in a vacuum. It is made in the context of the "certain events in human beings lives" that God ordained. In addition, when you see "election" in regards to salvation, it is always before belief and is always of individuals. I cannot think of use of "election" in a context of salvation that has to do with events. It simply is not there.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
ScottEmerson,

You need to get out more. I never heard any person who believes in free will boasting about how they came to Christ and augmented or earned their personal salvation. Yes, it is our faith/trust that activates His sovereign grace--though unmerited by the saints. If people are not some kind of 'nut bag' they realize that only God can minister the Holy Spirit by way of indwelling and sealing. Only Almighty God can take a yielded person into His majestic Presence at last.

I think you and I are on the same side here - It was connieman who said that free will=people boasting about their salvation. I sipmly said that Calvinists can sometimes take an arrogant attitude by being a "chosen one."

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by connieman:
One who believes that he has brought himself to Christ by his own "free-will" decision is going to brag about it, if he is honest, and not trying to prove what a wonderfully humble Calvinistic-Arminian, or Calminian, he is.

Then he has completely misunderstood the concept of God's grace.

Such a one, who believes that his salvation is, at least, a little bit of himself, may say, "Well, I'm not one to boast, BUT, after all, it was my decision which put me "in Christ" and opened the gate into heaven. "I was an unregenerate volunteer...wasn't I good?"

I disagree. In more than twelve years as a Christian, I've never met anyone who believed that his salvation was "at least a little bit of himself". Someone who truly understands God's grace understands that God loves us not because of anything we've done, but in spite of it.
What is it that the hymn says, "Nothing in my hand I bring/Simply to thy cross I cling"?

To the lost and unbelievers, he will say, "You could have been saved just like me, if only you had had the good sense that I had, to choose Christ!" THAT'S A BOAST IF EVER I HEARD ONE.

I don't know. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me.

I grew up among folks like this, and I've heard it all my life, from pulpit and pew. "Won't you please get saved, just like me? All you have to do is say 'yes' to Jesus Like I did!"

So, did you?

Mike

[ June 08, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[connieman]

Yes, smokeater, I did...but only after I had been born of God, and had been made a "new creature", by the grace of God alone, and not of myself, lest I should boast.

As a sinner, in the flesh, I was not able to please God of my own boasted "free-will".

connieman

[ June 08, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by connieman:
smokeater...it is in the nature of man to boast of whatever he thinks he has accomplished.

One who believes that he has brought himself to Christ by his own "free-will" decision is going to brag about it, if he is honest, and not trying to prove what a wonderfully humble Calvinistic-Arminian, or Calminian, he is.

Such a one, who believes that his salvation is, at least, a little bit of himself, may say, "Well, I'm not one to boast, BUT, after all, it was my decision which put me "in Christ" and opened the gate into heaven. "I was an unregenerate volunteer...wasn't I good?"

To the lost and unbelievers, he will say, "You could have been saved just like me, if only you had had the good sense that I had, to choose Christ!" THAT'S A BOAST IF EVER I HEARD ONE.

I grew up among folks like this, and I've heard it all my life, from pulpit and pew. "Won't you please get saved, just like me? All you have to do is say 'yes' to Jesus! Like I did!"

connieman

That's a total strawman caricature of an Arminian.

Do you really not understand that?

They don't boast in their salvation any more than you do.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by connieman:
Yes, smokeater, I did...but only after I had been born of God, and had been made a "new creature", by the grace of God alone, and not of myself, lest I should boast.

Good for you, connieman. I'm more concerned that you came to the cross regardless of how you got there. Whatever the cause, I'm glad that was the final outcome.

As a sinner, in the flesh, I was not able to please God of my own boasted "free-will"

I agree, but no one's suggesting otherwise.

Mike

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by AITB:

That's a total strawman caricature of an Arminian.

Do you really not understand that?

They don't boast in their salvation any more than you do.

I boast in the cross of Christ (Gal 6:14). Does that count?

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

Scott,

Sorry my mistake.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Sorry. I accidently edited this post instead of replying to it. My apologies.

We say that He predestinates all of the saved based on their trust in Jesus.

But you have yet to produce one verse of Scripture where God says this. There is a vast difference between what you say and what God says. I have repeatedly asked you for a verse to back up this assertion that predestination is the result of belief. Prove your point from Scripture, not from your own mind.

[ June 09, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

He surely is in control of all individuals and future events within that which we call time. Don't all Christians believe this?

 

[Ray Berrian]

SmokeEater,

In the N.T. there is a narrative about the disciples complaining to Jesus that other follows of the Lord were not doing things like that elete Apostolate. Maybe someone can bring this verse to our attention. God is so interested and concerned over lost souls, that He is bringing in people in sundry ways, even though they might not match up to our favorite methods. Don't be too hard on other brethen in the faith.

 

[Ray Berrian]

If people have not trusted and personally believed in Christ as Savior savingly, we might really wonder if they have been adopted into the family of God. God uses our faith to enter this covenant relationship to Him. [Hebrews 4:2].

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
SmokeEater,

In the N.T. there is a narrative about the disciples complaining to Jesus that other follows of the Lord were not doing things like that elete Apostolate. Maybe someone can bring this verse to our attention. God is so interested and concerned over lost souls, that He is bringing in people in sundry ways, even though they might not match up to our favorite methods. Don't be too hard on other brethen in the faith.

Hey Ray,

I'm confused. I thought was the point I was trying to make.

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

SmokeEater,

Sorry. At times when I see three names on a post I get the incorrect one. Hurrying I guess . . .

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by connieman:
smokeater...your nonsensical comments make it apparent that you do not really understand either Calvinism or Arminianism. But, for your information, Romans speaks of all mankind, not just some of us.

A couple of thoughts.

First of all, I'll be the first one to admit (and I have) to not exactly being an expert on the finer points of either one, but in all my years as a Christian, I think I do have a pretty good handle on grace.

Secondly, is it really appropriate for you to determine who does or doesn't understand, seeing as how you're given to making such wild and false statements about what people on both sides of the issue believe? It sounds as though you don't fully understand, either.

And last but not least, the passage I mentioned from Romans does refer to a specific group of people (in this case, homosexuals), not humanity in general.

Ray, I figured that was what happened. I've done it, too. The worst is when you're trying to respond to three people at once without stanrting a different post for each one.

Mike

[ June 09, 2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

SmokeEater,

You must have a home in New Jersey and Delaware or are you are sprouting wings and becoming omnipresent? Only my attempt to make you smile.

 

[Ray Berrian]

SmokeEater,

. . . . or transmigration of soul? Something like Phillip in Acts 8:39. This same Greek word, for 'caught away' is the same word used by the Apostle Paul about the rapture of the church in I Thessalonians 4:17. {harpazo} meaning to seize, catch away, pluck, pull or take by force.

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
SmokeEater,

You must have a home in New Jersey and Delaware or are you are sprouting wings and becoming omnipresent? Only my attempt to make you smile.

I'm starting to wonder, myself, Ray. I'm from Mt. Ephraim but due to circumstances beyond my control, I'm staying in De. right now.

I didn't change my the location in my profile because I'm hoping this is only temporary and I'm not quite ready to admit defeat yet.

There's also the possibility that I may be moving to Florida before the summer's out so it may end up being Mt.Ephraim N.J./Newark De/Key West Fla.

That would allow me to confuse a whole new group of people.

Mike

[ June 09, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[russell55]

Smoke_Eater,

And last but not least, the passage I mentioned from Romans does refer to a specific group of people (in this case, homosexuals), not humanity in general.

Huh? I thought you were refering to Romans 1. Are you refering to another passage?

[ June 09, 2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
He surely is in control of all individuals and future events within that which we call time. Don't all Christians believe this?

This is the point I have argued for from day one. It is you that has denied this. You do not believe that he is control of salvation. You believe that God is responding to the "free choices" of man. If you believe what you have written here, why do you spend so much time arguing against it?