What happens first?

Brother Bob,

If I am not mistaken, I think you are misunderstanding what we Calvinists mean when we say Grace must precede Faith.

This is what we DO NOT mean: We do not mean that Grace is given and that is it—the person may do what he or she pleases and go to heaven anyway.

What we mean is this: God giving His grace means the dead-in-trespasses person is given a new heart (this is regeneration). Regeneration must be followed by a response of Repentance and Faith.

This idea follows the Biblical pattern of God revealing Himself and the people of God responding. We see this pattern with Abraham and with the Israelites at Mt. Sinai.

I hope we can continue to discuss this and I am glad to see that you are not totally against election.

Blessings to you,

The Archangel

Ps. I'm still evaluating the "Abraham is the Father of Faith" thing. At face-value, it doesn't seem off. I'm going to read through Hebrews and other passages.

 

I don't know what the Arminian belief is for sure for I am an Old Regular Baptist and to be called a "freewill" my church would almost exclude me

We believe that the Spirit of God is striving with all men to repent and when we believe(faith) and take heed to that Spirit a Godly sorrow is then set up in our heart which worketh Repentance. After Repentance then we are "born again" and the stony heart is removed and we are given a heart of flesh. We put off the old man and put on the new.

BTW, The church I belong to split from a Calvinist Association over predestination in 1864

Romans 4:16
Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

I may have gotten that from here not sure. I have to look some more too.

 

Brother Bob,

Many SBC churches are not what I would call Calvinistic. Unfortunately, most SBC churches are still following a model of theology and practice that is rooted in the Finney heresies.

I certainly am a believer in the “Doctrines of Grace” but I know of some stupid Calvinists who do not think evangelism is Biblical—they are wrong! Some Calvinists seem to think Arminians are inferior and some Arminians seem to think Calvinists are inferior.

I certainly don’t think this way. As far as I see it, both Arminians and Calvinists, if they show fruit of repentance and faith, are Christians and should be regarded as such.

Both camps are guilty of church-splitting stupidity. Hopefully, we all can combat the madness!

Gotta go for now!

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

I must respectfully disagree with calling Charles Finney a heretic. You and I may disagree with some of his teachings, but I think it is wrong to label him as such.

 

Charles Finney makes John Wesley seem almost orthodox ( and I have many reservations about JW ) . I do not uderstand professing Christians endorsing the likes of Finney . I am not even getting into the C vs. A thing at this point . If Finney doesn't fit the bill as a heretic who would ? I hope that you view Bishop Spong as a heretic .

 

Your exaggeration is noted.

I do not think that Finney endorsed homosexuality; I'm not sure about Calvin though.

 

Sorry Bob but that isn't a third answer. There is no question man has a choice. The question is "Why will he choose one way or the other?" If God gives man a choice... and He does... then some will obey, some will not. The question is then do some obey because they are good or because God is good.

No. I am saying that He did... and that the natural man will always choose evil until God does a work upon His spirit to renew him.

I didn't say that did I Bob? Why must you do things like this? I didn't say that he could not choose good. I said that he predictably WILL NOT choose good.

I have noted before that man could obey the law in the abstract. But we know with such certainty that no one will choose to do so perfectly that we sometimes say that men cannot obey the law. Each violation of the law however is a conscious choice. Romans 1-2 makes it clear that all have the choice to obey the law whether written in the Bible or on their conscience. We all have a responsibility to obey the law. Yet we "will" not to obey the law and incur rightful judgment.

The exact same situation exists with salvation. We have a choice and responsibility that demands we accept Christ... but we "will" not to obey the gospel but rather choose self over God. Because of our weakness, God performs a resurrection on us. He changes our nature in such a way that our will is transformed.

Can man obey the law, Bob? God commands it. He rightly expects it. He condemns men for failing to do so. If man would obey it then he could earn his own ticket to heaven.

So in the OT when God said "choose this day who you will serve" and He was talking about obedience to the Law... was He offering a real choice?

Man will no more of his own natural spirit choose to have faith in Christ than he will of his own natural spirit choose to obey the law. It is against that nature and until that nature changes the behavior/choices will not change.
__________________

Key words: "whosoever will". Only those to whom God has imparted goodness "will".

 

I am sorry Scott but this just does not make sense. Man has a choice but he was created where he will not choose good. That is not a choice! It is double talk. You should be in politics.

You say we can choose Christ but how we were created we will choose self. Again Scott! that is not a choice.

Yes, the young man who came to Christ had obeyed the Law but the Law never could give life it only revealed sin as sin. You have to stop sinning to be saved.

Scott;
Reread your answers and see that you are saying one thing and that we were created where we couldn't do it, so you are not giving all men a choice. Now, if you really want to stick to the "elect" only at least it would make sense but to say all and then say they cannot do it is double talk.

 

Amazing that of the throngs and throngs and multitudes trying to get to Jesus only one woman was singled out by the Holy Spirit to be known by all believers as having faith first before being made whole ?

The reason she has faith is because it was given to her.

Now, it takes faith to receive Christ when He first came to His own. So, pray tell, Brother Bob, those who received Christ, did they do it because they had faith first ?

 

You cannot get to Grace without Faith.

So, God made her believe in Him, sorry I just do not believe that and you have no Scripture to support it you just say it.

Did you notice I said I did not believe and God didn't make me do it or nothing!

No one never did answer why one father supports his family and another does not.
One wife chose to be faithful and another did not.
One child chose to obey his parents and another did not.
(God didn't intervene in either one of the cases above.)


If you can answer the above then you will have your answer to why some choose good and some choose evil.

 

This is not what the bible says; Mark only says she heard of Jesus.

[27] When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
[28] For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

 

Quite notably you have tried to cherry pick my response and failed to answer some main points.

What doesn't make sense? That man will predictably not choose good? How does that not make sense Bob? Do you think man is good against direct scriptures to the contrary?

It is also not what I said. Man is born with a sin nature. He is also born with the knowledge of good and evil. Man does have a real choice. Good and evil are laid out before him. He does not have to choose evil but predictably will.

Actually I would say that twisting what your opponent says rather than actually answering his points with answers of real substance is a far more necessary requirement of a politician.

Where did I use the word "created" Bob? Why must you engage in such dishonest tactics?

You know that is not what I was referring to. He had not obeyed the moral law by never having sinned.

Actually you have to have never sinned to be saved with respect to the law unless atonement is made for your sin.

I suspect you are intentionally evading so I will ask directly again. Do you think a person (who was not born with a divine nature) can or will live without ever sinning?

I will answer first then perhaps you will show that your theology is either consistent or it isn't.

Yes. A man could live without sinning. He is faced with a life of choices in which God has always provided a right answer. However.... No. He will not because that will not be his choice.

Except for the plain and clear fact that you have added your bias to my words so that you could respond to them and maintain your position. I didn't say we were created where we couldn't do it. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I said that we could but predictably won't.

It is not mine to give but the system I have expressed very much gives man a choice. And because man is by his own fault spiritually dead, he will not choose to make the right choice. It is only when God, who did not create man without the capacity for obedience, changes man's nature that he can make righteous choices. That is what Peter meant when he said we became partakers of the divine nature.

You have a choice in interpretting that scripture as well. You can believe that the divine nature working within us led us to the choose good to overcome our sinful nature or you can believe that the sinful nature working in us somehow mustered enough good to merit receipt of the divine nature.

Nope. All have a responsibility. All have a choice. Without God's intervention, all will choose wrongly.

Can a person live sinless for their whole life Bob? It would be double talk for you to say that they cannot but are lost because they do not, wouldn't it Bob?

 

For by faith are ye saved through grace... Uh-oh... that isn't what it says, is it?

It says by grace are ye saved through faith, and THAT not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Grace is the cause. Faith is the means. Nothing could possibly be clearer than that scripture.

No more than a man makes a bird soar to the skies when he releases it from a cage. God opened her spiritual eyes to recognize the One she must have faith in.

The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance, Romans 2... for starters.

If God didn't free your spirit from the bondage of sin then you would still not believe. He deserves honor and glory for your salvation... why would you try to steal a share from Him?

Both are sinful. One sees it as beneficial to him to support them, the other doesn't. The one who does, does so because it will glorify self. Unless his actions are Spirit empowered works for the glory of the father... he in no more righteous before God than the other man. God judges the heart... and that man's heart has no more repented toward God than the other whose wickedness is visible to other men.

Again, because one's selfishness leads them to conclude that they will be best served by not cheating.

Again, both are driven by selfishness. What they perceive will give them what they want is what they will choose. They don't choose "good". They choose "good for me". That is not righteousness. It is simply veiled unrighteousness.

You are right. Both are selfish. Both are sinful. God will look at the hearts of both and judge them wanting.

Nope. Because in all of your examples neither has chosen true righteousness. Neither has been obedient to the glory of God. Their self-centered sinfulness has just manifested itself in different ways.

 

With all due respects, Brother Bob.
You have it backwards.
You cannot get to faith without grace is the proper order of things here.
Grace began in eternity past, when the Triune God covenanted to save many from Adam's race, and wrote the names of these elect in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Grace began in eternity past when you read names of the Savior like "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".
Grace is not payment or reward for faith.
Faith is evidence of grace.

As for your questions, well, I would ask in return, why is it that one individual becomes a serial killer and others do not ?
Why do a few among social drinkers proceed to alcoholism and others do not ?
Why do some police officers become corrupt and others do not ?
Why do some wives become adulterous and others do not ?
Why do some children become criminals and others do not ?

Sure you may say because choices are made and I concur, but these choices have nothing to do with the spiritual. When it comes to spiritual choices, one must first be quickened by God.

The bones in Ezekiel 37 could not move until God Himself gave them breath and sinews, so how could we expect a world- immersed sin-laden spiritually-dead individual to have faith in God to his salvation ? Or for that matter, how can we think that a religion- soaked tradition-bound individual find in himself faith enough to believe unto salvation of his soul ?

 

No, you have it backwards for it says "Grace through Faith"

And why don't you answer your own questions and it will give you the Spiritual answer for Jesus used "natural" things to show us Spirit things. Fruit of a tree, wind bloweth etc.

You cannot please God without faith and therefore you cannot be saved without faith, so its takes faith to get to the saving Grace of God. You can't twist the words of Jesus, "except you believe, you shall die in your sins."

No, it says you are saved by Grace but to get there you go "through faith". Except you believe you shall die in your sins. Simply put by Jesus Himself.

It just says she said within herself if I could only touch the hem of His garment, didn't say God did anything at all until she did touch the garment and that is when virtue went out of her.

Why else would you repent if it was not because to be with Christ is far better?

so the concluded what was best for them, that is very good and you are getting better!

neither chose true righteousness, neither has been obedient, right on!!!

Scott we been going around and around but you finally are beginning to seeeeeeeee! Amen,

 

The shall know me from the least unto the greatest so go ye not from house unto house saying know ye the Lord!!

Because they are dead in sin means they are lost it does not mean they don't have the ability to know there is a God. The Scripture teaches that even the evil Spirits know Him. He said all and that includes "dead in sin" shall know Him.

You should let the word of God work and quit trying to hinder it.

To try and use if someone can get up out of the grave to someone being able to hear the word of God when Jesus said preach the Gospel to every creature is absurb.

 

Brother Bob, et al.

Brother Bob,

In another post you wrote:

I have heard arguments about this very thing—is it grace, is it faith?

Ephesians 2 is quite specific in answering the question.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Let’s look at the verse and ask some questions of the text.

Verse 8
How have we been saved? By Grace through Faith.

Is this something we can do or gain for ourselves? No. (It is not [our] own doing.)

If, as the Scripture says, it is not [our] doing, how do we get Grace through Faith? It is a gift of God.

Technical Question: What does “It” refer to? Grace AND Faith.

If memory serves, the word “Grace” is feminine and “Faith” is feminine—they are both feminine nouns. The pronoun “it” in this case is neuter.

If “it” referred to Grace only, it would have to be presented in the feminine form, it isn’t; if “it” referred to Faith only, it would have to be presented in the feminine form, it isn’t.

“It,” being neuter, then, refers to BOTH Grace and Faith. Therefore both Grace and Faith are gifts of God.

Verse 9

Can the Faith/Grace gift be because of anything we do? No.

Why can the Grace/Faith gift not be a result of our works? So that we can’t boast about our being saved, as if it were something we did.

Now, I agree, as you posted, that we MUST believe. But, Scripture says that Faith is a gift. It is a gift of Grace.

I’m sure we’ll have much more to talk about, but let’s stick with the Ephesians passage for now. Until later…

Blessings

The Archangel

 

No it says "by" grace "through" faith. Again, grace is the cause. Faith is the means.

If you are referring to me, I did ask myself the same questions I ask you. I went to the scriptures to find the answers. That is how I arrived at a calvinistic perspective. Up until that time, I hadn't read a book on the subject to the best of my knowledge.

The system you espouse simply cannot give a scripturally consistent answer to why one man believes and another with no less opportunity does not. You ultimately must acknowledge that you believe the one is either "good" or else does a good work in order to complete their own salvation.

You are almost there... only you still haven't answered why one will choose to have faith while another will not. Again, you must either attribute the possession of that faith to either God's goodness or man's. If it is man's goodness then you are at least partly saved by your own merit... and that idea is contrary to scripture.

No one is trying to. I haven't said that belief, faith, repentance, etc are not necessary. I have said that their source is not the goodness of a man but the goodness God puts in that man when He chooses to regenerate the man.

Already answered but worth repeating... "through" refers to the means, not the cause. There is really no possible way you can deny this other than to deny the definitions of words.

And simply not contradictory to anything I've said.

True. Except I think you meant "Him" instead of "her". And thanks for the indirect acknowledgement that this scripture does not tell us the cause for her good insight.

That isn't what it says. It says the goodness of God leads you to repentance... "Lead" in every sense I have ever heard means to be primary, go first.

They conclude what they believe in a natural sense is best for them... not in a righteous sense whatsoever. The natural man sees only the natural things and makes his choices selfishly based on that perspective.

Unless of course you are arguing that selfishness is the motive that causes a person to have faith and accept Christ... IOW's "the sin of selfishness" leadeth thee to repentance.

That statement doesn't help your argument at all. Even when sinners choose what we would naturally think of as "good" it is sinfully motivated and therefore cannot please God.

Doing "right" for selfish reasons is no more righteous or meritorious than doing "wrong".

I have been seeing all along. I have seen you evade main points and work hard to establish straw men. I have seen you avoid answering main arguments and points that expose your system as unbiblical. Unfortunately, your comment above suggests you are getting further from the truth seemingly due to pride rather than closer.

I wish you would just be honest enough to say that God saves men because they make a good choice... and therefore contribute their own personal goodness to Christ's sacrifice in order to secure salvation. That is the direct and unavoidable implication of your insistance that man's choice is the critical difference between the saved and unsaved rather than God's choice.

 

It would seem that this is basically what the other side of this debate is effectively doing. They feel compelled to boast that it was "their choice" and no one "forced" them to make it.

 

Can't you see if its the "means" then it is exactly what I have said all along that to get to Grace you have to have a "means" to get there and that is faith. amen Your own definition fits my explanation perfectly.

But you said God gave us a choice to choose good or evil. Why would it be boasting if God made us that way?

You have seen me defend what I believe the Scripture says. I would never say something that I didn't believe it was Scripture.

I will say that man chooses to let the good Spirit lead him to Christ. The Salvation is of the Lord and not of man whatsoever.

At least you have been civil about this debate Scott.

I kept overlooking that faith=means is how you describe it. That is a good way to put it. I will use that from now on.

When you don't have a good answer you switch from Spiritual to natural. I have to admire you Scott, you know how to play bait switching.