What happens first?

Bob, you said "That means that all men can if they will have that Hope ". Notice the condition "if they will" in your statement. This is the circle that goes round and round. Again, man is not willing to have Hope in God until God works a change in their nature. The natural man has hope in man. That's the basis of humanistic religion. He has to be changed by God to seek God.

Besides, here's the context of the verse you keep quoting:

NKJV Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Here we see a comparison made between (1) present suffering; and (2)future glory.


19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Here we see another comparison, this one between the "creation" and "the sons of God".


20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

This "creation" was subjected to vanity. The creation was not willing, but because God intended to bring hope to the creation, it was necessarily subjected.

This "creation" does not represent people. Notice He subjected it in hope.

21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only [that,] but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

This hope (future glory) for the creation is paralleled with the hope (future glory) of the redeemed people of God.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

If we, those of us that have the firstfruits of the Spirit, had no hope (expectation of future glory), we would fall away; but because we do have that hope and the earnest of the Spirit, we are not of those that fall away into perdition, but rather we preservere unto the end.

 

Did you say 70, as in "seventy", years?

 

That Hope is Jesus Christ.

You know something J.D., there is no way you can know that. It is what you believe but is your belief the truth. You can't answer "God so loved the whole world", You can't answer "whosoever", You can't answer "come unto me all ye end of the earth", You can't answer "it is not God's will that any should perish, but yet you say some men don't have the right to go to Heaven and never will have when the Scripture says "time and chance has happened to all men".

The Scriptures you quoted above are all to the saved (which includes me by the way, an Arminian). Amen,

 

If "not worthy" is a condition that one must meet then we all meet that. I wonder how a God of "love", when all men are the same, randomly pick a few for no reason whatsoever. Sorry, I can't swallow that one.

 

I hate to be nit-picky, but the problem with your statement is that you said "randomly". God chose the elect according to his own will and foreknowledge, for his own purpose and glory. Though that may be above our knowledge, there's nothing arbitrary or random about that, nor is it fate, or luck, or chance; or human birth, or human will, or human worth.

Why did he choose me to be saved? I don't know. The glory is all His. He does not tell us why he does what he does so that the excellency of the power might be in Him and not in us; so that we would come to know that of Him, and through Him, and to Him, be all things.

 

I am beginning to believe the Arminians are the "elect" for they do use Scriptures for believing they are a child of God and give a reason for their Hope. They sure don't say "I don't know". We do know and its because of belief in Christ and repentance which is a Godly sorrow of which you become sorry you sinned against God, and by His Grace then He saves you through the blood of Christ.

 

For me, that pretty well sums it up. :thumbs:

I don't consider myself an Armenian or a Calvinist.

I don't think we will ever understand all of the Grace of God, no matter how many Scriptures or hypothetical situations we throw at it. I am forced to do my best to apply what I do understand to my own life despite of the labels pinned on me.

I do want to apologize to all of the Calvinist here for the unkind things I have said to them. I am passionate about this and often allow my tendency to argue to get the best of me.

 

Brother Bob, et al.

Brother Bob,

I really don’t see how it is the Calvinist who turns the Grace-Faith thing around. Grace comes first, then faith. It would seem if one believes faith is a prerequisite to grace, thereby attaining salvation, then that person would be, in fact, turning the order of things around.

Actually, as Ephesians 2 says, Grace saves through Faith. The construction of the language suggests that both grace and faith, and therefore the whole business of salvation, are the act of God. So, to separate one aspect of the salvation act is not Scriptural. Calvinists make this mistake too by erring to far on the “Grace” side of things to the exclusion of the proper, personal response of repentance and faith.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. If you mean, in some way, that God treats everyone the same, I’m not sure you have scriptural support. I may have misunderstood your point, please clarify for me.

The “charges” (and I am using the term VERY loosely) show a basic and quite common misunderstanding of what Calvinists believe. If I may, I’ll try to answer these charges. In doing so, I am not trying to be snotty or pejorative.

We do believe God loved the world. John 3:16 is clear. What most Bible translations miss is the explanation of the word “So.” The word so does not mean “God loved the world SOOOO much… Rather, it means, “God loved the world in this manner (or way): He gave His unique Son that…

As far as God loving the whole world, we know, from Scripture, that all creation is groaning for final redemption (see Romans 8:18-25).

This is a hard one. I’m not sure of any place in the Scripture where we are or even shown where we were created equally.

If you are going to make the argument of “equality,” how do you deal with and/or explain the following passages: (all ESV)

Romans 9:10-13
10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

It certainly does not seem that they were created equal. God chose Jacob “they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad.” Obviously, God did not choose based on anything intrinsic to Jacob or anything intrinsic to Esau. Rather, something (we are not told exactly what) in God caused Him to choose Jacob over Esau. The only thing alluded to is “His purpose of election.”

Joshua 24:2
2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

This example shows that Abraham was, in fact, an idol worshiper before called by God. If he was an idol worshiper, what made him “attractive” to God to be used? Nothing.

The Joshua and Romans passages shows that God is not concerned with “equality” as we are. If He were, we could make a charge of “unfairness” because, apparently, not everyone in the world was given the same “calling” as Abraham. As the Joshua passage says, Abraham was not even worshiping god when god called him. So, Abraham, along with the rest of the world, was not worship God (Yahweh, the God of the Bible) and yet God called him (Abraham) alone. How is that “fair” or “equal?”

Actually, I would say that none of us are “special” in a way that makes us more or less attractive to God. The Joshua and Romans passages above show that. It is only God’s grace, which He distributes according to His own “Good pleasure,” that saves us—even while we are “still enemies of His.”

In short, He gives us a new heart (regeneration) which allows us to respond in repentance and faith, which are required for salvation.

Actually, I’d say all Christians (Arminians and Calvinists alike are chosen).

Bob, I must say that I do enjoy your posts. I certainly do not agree with many of your points, but I do think you have a sweet spirit and I do think you enjoy engaging with other Christians in theological discussion.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Terry - I am one calvinists that am glad to forgive you, and please forgive me if I've unnecessarity offended.

I went through the same process, only against arminians. When I came here, I thought that I could ruff-up the non-calvinists and convert them with my angry words. How foolish.

On the other hand, I still can't stand limp-wristed debating. By that I don't mean that I don't like people that are sensitive or may be young in the Lord and haven't developed thick skin yet. Limp-wristing is when someone logs on and hurls some pejorative comment, and then when someone replies with a similar tone, they fall down and play hurt, and/or hide behind the "judge not" smokescreen. Also, even when I started trying to be a little nicer in my posts, I found that my directness in expressing my opinions caused them to appear harsher than I intended, so I try to go one more notch softer on my words than what I'm actually thinking so I won't be so offensive.

I'll be looking forward to seeing your posts. God Bless.

 

Deafpost:

Don't talk too loud, my man !!:smilewinkgrin:

Seriously, why don't you try to understand Paul's soteriology first, and then begin reading Romans 10 from chapter 9.

He was talking of elect Israelites within the nation of Israel here, who were still in the grip of Judaism.
Remember "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" ?

In other words, he was talking about gospel preaching and teaching so there will be gospel obedience from the elect.
He was not talking of getting them eternally saved through the gospel.

 

Now that hurt J.D. :applause: :applause: raise:

 

Grace through Faith. ( to get to Detroit we go through Ohio). Through faith to Grace is what the Scripture says. Every Calvinist I talked to so far says you don’t get faith until you have the Grace which is backwards

Revelation, chapter 3
"20": Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation, chapter 2
"20": Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

"21": And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
2 Peter, chapter 3
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ephesians, chapter 6
"9": And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Mark, chapter 16
"14": Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Just one of many Scriptures, if you come back too hard I get more.

Genesis 5
1: This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
This only creation I know of and we are multiplied Adam and if we too are in the likeness of God then would that not make us all created the same?

Agree, but still don’t believe that God didn’t give some a chance to go to Heaven. "Time and chance has happen to all". "Come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved for I am God."

Explain?

I enjoy you too Archangel,

 

A very big amen on that pt brother bob, they claim scripture is so clear and yet qoute men more often. Either way gentilemen it is NOT so clear as there are many many great men and scholars also who disagree over this issue on BOTH sides!

 

Great posting, Bro, Bob!:thumbs:

 

Brother Bob:

Brother Bob,

You said:

I understand why you would say something like this. I used to be an Arminian and I believed that faith brought grace.

However, there are fatal flaws with that position. Now, I am not pretending to have all the answers, but some things don’t add up.


Romans 9:10-13

10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

If it is the case that Faith must precede Grace, how is it that Jacob was chosen and Esau was not? Was it because Jacob showed Faith and Esau didn’t? That cannot be the case because the Scripture says God chose Jacob over Esau BEFORE they were born.

Important Question:
How, then, could it be that Faith preceded Grace since Jacob was chosen before he could demonstrate Faith?

Let’s take another example.

Joshua 24:2

2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

This passage in Joshua says that Abraham was an idol worshiper when God began His relationship with him.

Important Question:
If Faith must precede Grace, how did God begin a relationship with Abraham (then Abram) when he was worshiping false idols, which is showing exactly the opposite of Faith in God?

Bob, I know there are other issues. We can discuss them later. I’d like to stick to the above issue so that we do not get too far off topic.

I hope your Sunday service were great! Blessings to you.

The Archangel

 

Archangel;
Do you think "by Grace through faith" applied to the OT?

As far as Abraham was he not the "father of faith"? It said his father served "other Gods". I don't know about Abraham?

There was purpose in Jacob and Esau for the setting up God's chosen people don't you think?

 

Brother Bob:

Brother Bob,

In a word--yes. I know people that don't agree with the OT idea of Grace through Faith, but I think the Bible doesn't leave any other option.

Joshua 24

1 Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and summoned the elders, the heads, the judges, and the officers of Israel. And they presented themselves before God. 2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.

Since verse 2 refers to "fathers," Abraham, ultimately, must be the one in view. Never do we hear of Terah and Nahor being referred to as "father's" as Abraham is referred to as "Father Abraham." Since the OT refers to Abraham as being the father of the Israelite people (See Genesis 12 and following--about Abraham's offspring being captives in Egypt). So, this verse must be referring to Abraham. Also, in verse 3, God is shown as the One doing the actions. Nothing is said to be a response of anything relating to "faith" in Abraham.

Absolutely! I agree, there was purpose--God's purpose of election.

However, what you were saying, Faith preceding Grace (and equality, for that matter) is not supported by the choosing of Jacob before he could demonstrate faith.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

I have to disagree here for "Grace through Faith" gives you eternal life now when you receive it and then even though they had Grace and also Faith they were looking forward to the coming of the Messiah and only stayed their sins from year to year.

I do believe in some "election".

Abraham I will give you that one but he was the "Father of Faith was he not?"

 

Archangel = If there was salvation in the OT it would have been via the law. However there is some who would disagree with any salvation in the OT. This view leaves the 144 thousand in Rev. to be decided as well as Enoch, Elijah, Moses and the gateway being the bosom of Abraham.

Many of person in the OT did find favor with GOD and Jacob would be included in this group.