What happens first?

[J.D.]

What about the "creature being made subject to vanity but not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope.

This is to all men saying that all men were created subjected to Hope, it is not just to some and left the rest out but all men were made the same from the beginning. That means that all men can if they will have that Hope (which is Christ), amen.

Another thing, we have the Bible to study. I for one do not need all those different writers you give and could care less what they say. It is like some on this board with minds going in all directions.

He that lacketh wisdom let him ask of God. Maybe you need to do that, what do you think?

Bob, you said "That means that all men can if they will have that Hope ". Notice the condition "if they will" in your statement. This is the circle that goes round and round. Again, man is not willing to have Hope in God until God works a change in their nature. The natural man has hope in man. That's the basis of humanistic religion. He has to be changed by God to seek God.

Besides, here's the context of the verse you keep quoting:

NKJV Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Here we see a comparison made between (1) present suffering; and (2)future glory.


19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Here we see another comparison, this one between the "creation" and "the sons of God".


20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

This "creation" was subjected to vanity. The creation was not willing, but because God intended to bring hope to the creation, it was necessarily subjected.

This "creation" does not represent people. Notice He subjected it in hope.

21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only [that,] but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

This hope (future glory) for the creation is paralleled with the hope (future glory) of the redeemed people of God.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

If we, those of us that have the firstfruits of the Spirit, had no hope (expectation of future glory), we would fall away; but because we do have that hope and the earnest of the Spirit, we are not of those that fall away into perdition, but rather we preservere unto the end.

 

[J.D.]

Isnt that the truth!! I lived as arminian for 70 yrs before learning of the doctrines of grace and I pretty much felt as Spurgeon as it is such an overwhelming truth to encounter after being taught it was up to me! It was just an aweinspiring experience to view the real holiness of God in truth after such a time, falling in humility to my knees in gratitude! How you just pray that others could see the same scriptural doctrines in such clear light!raise:

Did you say 70, as in "seventy", years?

 

[Brother Bob]

That Hope is Jesus Christ.

You know something J.D., there is no way you can know that. It is what you believe but is your belief the truth. You can't answer "God so loved the whole world", You can't answer "whosoever", You can't answer "come unto me all ye end of the earth", You can't answer "it is not God's will that any should perish, but yet you say some men don't have the right to go to Heaven and never will have when the Scripture says "time and chance has happened to all men".

The Scriptures you quoted above are all to the saved (which includes me by the way, an Arminian). Amen,

 

[2BHizown]

Sovereignty

I guess its how one views sovereignty! I believe God is all powerful and is able to cause all men to come to Him if that was His plan, because ALL that He plans comes to pass!
The elect are not chosen due to their worth as they have none and are depraved sinners just like everyone else. But, when they come to God through Christ it is because of His great mercy! To even think that God stands idly by striving for people to come to Him makes Him powerless, and that He is not!!
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5

 

[Brother Bob]

If "not worthy" is a condition that one must meet then we all meet that. I wonder how a God of "love", when all men are the same, randomly pick a few for no reason whatsoever. Sorry, I can't swallow that one.

 

[J.D.]

If "not worthy" is a condition that one must meet then we all meet that. I wonder how a God of "love", when all men are the same, randomly pick a few. Sorry, I can't swallow that one.

I hate to be nit-picky, but the problem with your statement is that you said "randomly". God chose the elect according to his own will and foreknowledge, for his own purpose and glory. Though that may be above our knowledge, there's nothing arbitrary or random about that, nor is it fate, or luck, or chance; or human birth, or human will, or human worth.

Why did he choose me to be saved? I don't know. The glory is all His. He does not tell us why he does what he does so that the excellency of the power might be in Him and not in us; so that we would come to know that of Him, and through Him, and to Him, be all things.

 

[Brother Bob]

I am beginning to believe the Arminians are the "elect" for they do use Scriptures for believing they are a child of God and give a reason for their Hope. They sure don't say "I don't know". We do know and its because of belief in Christ and repentance which is a Godly sorrow of which you become sorry you sinned against God, and by His Grace then He saves you through the blood of Christ.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

If "not worthy" is a condition that one must meet then we all meet that. I wonder how a God of "love", when all men are the same, randomly pick a few for no reason whatsoever. Sorry, I can't swallow that one.

For me, that pretty well sums it up. :thumbs:

I don't consider myself an Armenian or a Calvinist.

I don't think we will ever understand all of the Grace of God, no matter how many Scriptures or hypothetical situations we throw at it. I am forced to do my best to apply what I do understand to my own life despite of the labels pinned on me.

I do want to apologize to all of the Calvinist here for the unkind things I have said to them. I am passionate about this and often allow my tendency to argue to get the best of me.

 

[The Archangel]

Brother Bob, et al.

Brother Bob,

What for some reason you fail to see is that we too did everything that Spurgeon said also. We didn't save ourselves, God did. We also were saved by Grace. We also are on our way to the same Heaven you aspire to. We also believe in the same God you do. We also believe that Jesus is the Christ as you do. We also believe that you are saved by Grace through faith but we don't turn them around as you do.

I really don’t see how it is the Calvinist who turns the Grace-Faith thing around. Grace comes first, then faith. It would seem if one believes faith is a prerequisite to grace, thereby attaining salvation, then that person would be, in fact, turning the order of things around.

Actually, as Ephesians 2 says, Grace saves through Faith. The construction of the language suggests that both grace and faith, and therefore the whole business of salvation, are the act of God. So, to separate one aspect of the salvation act is not Scriptural. Calvinists make this mistake too by erring to far on the “Grace” side of things to the exclusion of the proper, personal response of repentance and faith.

We believe that God strives with all men apparently you don't.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. If you mean, in some way, that God treats everyone the same, I’m not sure you have scriptural support. I may have misunderstood your point, please clarify for me.

The “charges” (and I am using the term VERY loosely) show a basic and quite common misunderstanding of what Calvinists believe. If I may, I’ll try to answer these charges. In doing so, I am not trying to be snotty or pejorative.

We believe God so loved the whole world, apparently you don't.

We do believe God loved the world. John 3:16 is clear. What most Bible translations miss is the explanation of the word “So.” The word so does not mean “God loved the world SOOOO much… Rather, it means, “God loved the world in this manner (or way): He gave His unique Son that…

As far as God loving the whole world, we know, from Scripture, that all creation is groaning for final redemption (see Romans 8:18-25).

We believe all men were created the same, apparently you don't.

This is a hard one. I’m not sure of any place in the Scripture where we are or even shown where we were created equally.

If you are going to make the argument of “equality,” how do you deal with and/or explain the following passages: (all ESV)

Romans 9:10-13
10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

It certainly does not seem that they were created equal. God chose Jacob “they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad.” Obviously, God did not choose based on anything intrinsic to Jacob or anything intrinsic to Esau. Rather, something (we are not told exactly what) in God caused Him to choose Jacob over Esau. The only thing alluded to is “His purpose of election.”

Joshua 24:2
2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

This example shows that Abraham was, in fact, an idol worshiper before called by God. If he was an idol worshiper, what made him “attractive” to God to be used? Nothing.

The Joshua and Romans passages shows that God is not concerned with “equality” as we are. If He were, we could make a charge of “unfairness” because, apparently, not everyone in the world was given the same “calling” as Abraham. As the Joshua passage says, Abraham was not even worshiping god when god called him. So, Abraham, along with the rest of the world, was not worship God (Yahweh, the God of the Bible) and yet God called him (Abraham) alone. How is that “fair” or “equal?”

You say you don't understand why all don't see it the Calvinist way but we say how could some believe they are so special and above others when it comes to the chance to go to Heaven.

Actually, I would say that none of us are “special” in a way that makes us more or less attractive to God. The Joshua and Romans passages above show that. It is only God’s grace, which He distributes according to His own “Good pleasure,” that saves us—even while we are “still enemies of His.”

In short, He gives us a new heart (regeneration) which allows us to respond in repentance and faith, which are required for salvation.

You fail to see that if you believe what you say you do it is your belief and you could be completely wrong and miss the boat all together. Maybe Arminians are the chosen instead of Calvinist. What you think?

Actually, I’d say all Christians (Arminians and Calvinists alike are chosen).

Bob, I must say that I do enjoy your posts. I certainly do not agree with many of your points, but I do think you have a sweet spirit and I do think you enjoy engaging with other Christians in theological discussion.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[J.D.]

Terry - I am one calvinists that am glad to forgive you, and please forgive me if I've unnecessarity offended.

I went through the same process, only against arminians. When I came here, I thought that I could ruff-up the non-calvinists and convert them with my angry words. How foolish.

On the other hand, I still can't stand limp-wristed debating. By that I don't mean that I don't like people that are sensitive or may be young in the Lord and haven't developed thick skin yet. Limp-wristing is when someone logs on and hurls some pejorative comment, and then when someone replies with a similar tone, they fall down and play hurt, and/or hide behind the "judge not" smokescreen. Also, even when I started trying to be a little nicer in my posts, I found that my directness in expressing my opinions caused them to appear harsher than I intended, so I try to go one more notch softer on my words than what I'm actually thinking so I won't be so offensive.

I'll be looking forward to seeing your posts. God Bless.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I disagree with calvinism on 'total depravity'. They do not believe a person have will to make decision to choice. Because they saying that a person is spiritually dead or natural man cannot understand God's thing.

Romans 10:14 says, "HOW then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and HOW shall they believe in him of whom they have NOT HEARD? and HOW SHALL they hear WITHOUT A PREACHER?"

Obivous, this verse is bold speak against calvinism's one of the five point- 'total depravity'.

They CANNOT hear the gospel WITHOUT anyone telling them the gospel FIRST.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Deafpost:

Don't talk too loud, my man !!:smilewinkgrin:

Seriously, why don't you try to understand Paul's soteriology first, and then begin reading Romans 10 from chapter 9.

He was talking of elect Israelites within the nation of Israel here, who were still in the grip of Judaism.
Remember "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" ?

In other words, he was talking about gospel preaching and teaching so there will be gospel obedience from the elect.
He was not talking of getting them eternally saved through the gospel.

 

[Brother Bob]

Now that hurt J.D. :applause: :applause: raise:

 

[Brother Bob]

I really don’t see how it is the Calvinist who turns the Grace-Faith thing around. Grace comes first, then faith. It would seem if one believes faith is a prerequisite to grace, thereby attaining salvation, then that person would be, in fact, turning the order of things around.

Actually, as Ephesians 2 says, Grace saves through Faith. The construction of the language suggests that both grace and faith, and therefore the whole business of salvation, are the act of God. So, to separate one aspect of the salvation act is not Scriptural. Calvinists make this mistake too by erring to far on the "Grace" side of things to the exclusion of the proper, personal response of repentance and faith.

Grace through Faith. ( to get to Detroit we go through Ohio). Through faith to Grace is what the Scripture says. Every Calvinist I talked to so far says you don’t get faith until you have the Grace which is backwards

We believe that God strives with all men apparently you don't.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. If you mean, in some way, that God treats everyone the same, I’m not sure you have scriptural support. I may have misunderstood your point, please clarify for me.

Revelation, chapter 3
"20": Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation, chapter 2
"20": Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

"21": And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
2 Peter, chapter 3
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ephesians, chapter 6
"9": And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

We believe God so loved the whole world, apparently you don't
We do believe God loved the world. John 3:16 is clear. What most Bible translations miss is the explanation of the word "So." The word so does not mean "God loved the world SOOOO much… Rather, it means, "God loved the world in this manner (or way): He gave His unique Son that

Mark, chapter 16
"14": Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Just one of many Scriptures, if you come back too hard I get more.

We believe all men were created the same, apparently you don't.
This is a hard one. I’m not sure of any place in the Scripture where we are or even shown where we were created equally.
For God too choose certain people to show his Glory and Power to mankind is different than when we were all created.

Genesis 5
1: This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
This only creation I know of and we are multiplied Adam and if we too are in the likeness of God then would that not make us all created the same?

You say you don't understand why all don't see it the Calvinist way but we say how could some believe they are so special and above others when it comes to the chance to go to Heaven.
Actually, I would say that none of us are "special" in a way that makes us more or less attractive to God

Agree, but still don’t believe that God didn’t give some a chance to go to Heaven. "Time and chance has happen to all". "Come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved for I am God."

You fail to see that if you believe what you say you do it is your belief and you could be completely wrong and miss the boat all together. Maybe Arminians are the chosen instead of Calvinist. What you think?

Explain?

I enjoy you too Archangel,

 

[Timtoolman]

What about the "creature being made subject to vanity but not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope.

This is to all men saying that all men were created subjected to Hope, it is not just to some and left the rest out but all men were made the same from the beginning. That means that all men can if they will have that Hope (which is Christ), amen.

Another thing, we have the Bible to study. I for one do not need all those different writers you give and could care less what they say. It is like some on this board with minds going in all directions.

He that lacketh wisdom let him ask of God. Maybe you need to do that, what do you think?

A very big amen on that pt brother bob, they claim scripture is so clear and yet qoute men more often. Either way gentilemen it is NOT so clear as there are many many great men and scholars also who disagree over this issue on BOTH sides!

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Grace through Faith. ( to get to Detroit we go through Ohio). Through faith to Grace is what the Scripture says. Every Calvinist I talked to so far says you don’t get faith until you have the Grace which is backwards

Revelation, chapter 3
"20": Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation, chapter 2
"20": Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

"21": And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
2 Peter, chapter 3
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ephesians, chapter 6
"9": And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Mark, chapter 16
"14": Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Just one of many Scriptures, if you come back too hard I get more.

Genesis 5
1: This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
This only creation I know of and we are multiplied Adam and if we too are in the likeness of God then would that not make us all created the same?

Agree, but still don’t believe that God didn’t give some a chance to go to Heaven. "Time and chance has happen to all". "Come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved for I am God."

Explain?

I enjoy you too Archangel,

Great posting, Bro, Bob!:thumbs:

 

[The Archangel]

Brother Bob:

Brother Bob,

You said:

Grace through Faith. ( to get to Detroit we go through Ohio). Through faith to Grace is what the Scripture says. Every Calvinist I talked to so far says you don’t get faith until you have the Grace which is backwards

I understand why you would say something like this. I used to be an Arminian and I believed that faith brought grace.

However, there are fatal flaws with that position. Now, I am not pretending to have all the answers, but some things don’t add up.


Romans 9:10-13

10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

If it is the case that Faith must precede Grace, how is it that Jacob was chosen and Esau was not? Was it because Jacob showed Faith and Esau didn’t? That cannot be the case because the Scripture says God chose Jacob over Esau BEFORE they were born.

Important Question:
How, then, could it be that Faith preceded Grace since Jacob was chosen before he could demonstrate Faith?

Let’s take another example.

Joshua 24:2

2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

This passage in Joshua says that Abraham was an idol worshiper when God began His relationship with him.

Important Question:
If Faith must precede Grace, how did God begin a relationship with Abraham (then Abram) when he was worshiping false idols, which is showing exactly the opposite of Faith in God?

Bob, I know there are other issues. We can discuss them later. I’d like to stick to the above issue so that we do not get too far off topic.

I hope your Sunday service were great! Blessings to you.

The Archangel

 

[Brother Bob]

Archangel;
Do you think "by Grace through faith" applied to the OT?

As far as Abraham was he not the "father of faith"? It said his father served "other Gods". I don't know about Abraham?

There was purpose in Jacob and Esau for the setting up God's chosen people don't you think?

 

[The Archangel]

Brother Bob:

Brother Bob,

Do you think "by Grace through faith" applied to the OT?

In a word--yes. I know people that don't agree with the OT idea of Grace through Faith, but I think the Bible doesn't leave any other option.

As far as Abraham was he not the "father of faith"? It said his father served "other Gods". I don't know about Abraham?

Joshua 24

1 Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and summoned the elders, the heads, the judges, and the officers of Israel. And they presented themselves before God. 2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.

Since verse 2 refers to "fathers," Abraham, ultimately, must be the one in view. Never do we hear of Terah and Nahor being referred to as "father's" as Abraham is referred to as "Father Abraham." Since the OT refers to Abraham as being the father of the Israelite people (See Genesis 12 and following--about Abraham's offspring being captives in Egypt). So, this verse must be referring to Abraham. Also, in verse 3, God is shown as the One doing the actions. Nothing is said to be a response of anything relating to "faith" in Abraham.

There was purpose in Jacob and Esau for the setting up God's chosen people don't you think?

Absolutely! I agree, there was purpose--God's purpose of election.

However, what you were saying, Faith preceding Grace (and equality, for that matter) is not supported by the choosing of Jacob before he could demonstrate faith.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Brother Bob]

In a word--yes. I know people that don't agree with the OT idea of Grace through Faith, but I think the Bible doesn't leave any other option.

I have to disagree here for "Grace through Faith" gives you eternal life now when you receive it and then even though they had Grace and also Faith they were looking forward to the coming of the Messiah and only stayed their sins from year to year.

Absolutely! I agree, there was purpose--God's purpose of election.

However, what you were saying, Faith preceding Grace (and equality, for that matter) is not supported by the choosing of Jacob before he could demonstrate faith.

I do believe in some "election".

Abraham I will give you that one but he was the "Father of Faith was he not?"

 

[LeBuick]

Archangel = If there was salvation in the OT it would have been via the law. However there is some who would disagree with any salvation in the OT. This view leaves the 144 thousand in Rev. to be decided as well as Enoch, Elijah, Moses and the gateway being the bosom of Abraham.

Many of person in the OT did find favor with GOD and Jacob would be included in this group.