What if brother Paul Washer were to preach in your church?

[Squire Robertsson]

In the proper course of a pulpit ministry, proper feeding of the flock entrusted to me means

• they mature in their Christian walk. I expect a new born babe in Christ to be just that a newborn babe. I don't expect them to hold positions possessed by more mature Believers.
  
• they learn how to properly discern right from wrong according to the principles taught in Scriptures.

That's because most here are against LS!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed sometime after 7 pm Pacific.

 

[evangelist6589]

In the proper course of a pulpit ministry, proper feeding of the flock entrusted to me means

• they mature in their Christian walk. I expect a new born babe in Christ to be just that a newborn babe. I don't expect them to hold positions possessed by more mature Believers.
  
• they learn how to properly discern right from wrong according to the principles taught in Scriptures.

You are correct in that the LS view is one held by more mature believers. Or is this not what you implied?

 

[evangelist6589]

That's because it's a false gospel....

James have you ever met a talking Gremlin?

 

[JamesL]

James have you ever met a talking Gremlin?

Yes...you. of course, not in person

 

[Yeshua1]

Or, if you look at scriptural words related to elect (chosen, called, etc) and then see what words are further related through those (inherit, son, heir, reward, etc)

You can see a whole teaching in scripture that not everyone who believes in Christ is among the elect.

Every believer have eternal life, and will be in the presence of Christ for eternity, but not every believer is one of the elect. Not everyone in the presence of Christ will be one of the elect.

There are NO saved apart from God electing them Himself to getting saved in Christ!
All saved in Heaven du to the will and plan/purpose of God in His election.

 

[Yeshua1]

Wrong.

Once you believed, you were counted among the redeemed.

But you won't know if you are among the elect until you reach the end, and look back to see if you finished the course. Even the Apostle Paul said that he hoped that he would attain to the resurrection of Christ, and not that he had already attained it

We can know right here and now that we have eternal life/salvation, see John!

 

[Yeshua1]

Prior to salvation it is a coorporate election. When we become save it is now individual. God chose before the foundation of the world to save those who believe. That is election. Once I put on salvation, by God's grace, it is now my election and I am among the elect.

Except that Paul in both Romans and Ephesians would be claiming individual election by God of the saints into the Body!

 

[JamesL]

There are NO saved apart from God electing them Himself to getting saved in Christ!
All saved in Heaven du to the will and plan/purpose of God in His election.

You have no idea what election means

 

[JamesL]

We can know right here and now that we have eternal life/salvation, see John!

Yes.
But we cannot know if we are one of the elect.

 

[JonC]

From our perspective, they are different things. From God's perspective? I don't see much difference.

I don't think from either perspective these are the same. Even if we were to believe that indivudual election occurs at the moment we believed so that the happened at the same time, they would be different things.

Either way, it is always an error to superimpose one understanding over another in order to refute the view. We always have to deal with other views in their own context, otherwise we will never know where we truly disagree. An election which is also salvation itself is not the election to which most seem to refer in their theoligies.

 

[Revmitchell]

Except that Paul in both Romans and Ephesians would be claiming individual election by God of the saints into the Body!

Ok well you have a habit of making claims with no support. Could you begin at some time to include the supporting scripture to you claims?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The First London Baptist Confession of Faith 1646 Edition


3. And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; [having foreordained and] leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice.

6. All the elect being loved of God with an everlasting love, are redeemed, quickened, and saved, not by themselves, nor their own works, lest any man should boast, but, only and wholly by God, of His own free grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ, who is made unto us by God, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, and all in all, that he that rejoiceth, might rejoice in the Lord.

21. Jesus Christ by His death did purchase salvation for the elect that God gave unto Him: These only have interest in Him, and fellowship with Him, for whom He makes intercession to His Father in their behalf, and to them alone doth God by His Spirit apply this redemption; as also the free gift of eternal life is given to them, and none else.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith Chapter III: Of God's Decree

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes.
But we cannot know if we are one of the elect.

What/who is the elect?

 

[JamesL]

What/who is the elect?

The elect are the sons of God. Not children, but sons.

It appeals to an Old Testament understanding of "son" and is the same sense in which Jesus is THE Son of God. He is the Heir of all things (Heb 1:2), who for the joy set before Him endured the cross and then sat at the right hand of God (Heb 12:2)

He is the "monogenes" (only Son c.f. John 3:16) of God, in the same way that Isaac was the monogenes of Abraham (Heb 11:17, Gen 22:2, 12, 16). Though Abraham had other children, Isaac was his only son.

And at the end of Abraham's life, He have to Isaac all that he had (Gen 25:5)

There is much more that can be written about this, I think about those as you see what's written in Romans chapter 8:14-30

14 Those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God

15 we have received the spirit of adoption as Sons

16 the spirit himself testifies that we are the children of God

17 if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ - if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him

The scriptures plainly states that it's those who are led by the spirit who are the sons of God. And it also says that we are joint heirs with Christ if we suffer with him. That's conditional

18 for I am convinced that the sufferings of this present world are not worthy to be compared to the glory that is about to be revealed in us.

The glory - the Inheritance and the honor which comes with it, air condition on whether or not we suffer with Christ.

Read verses 26 and 27, how the spirit helps us in our times of weakness, and intercedes for us. This is relating to our times of suffering

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose

Think of Joseph in Egypt, when his brothers were brought before him. He said to them " you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good"

Denon verse 29, Paul speaks of those who were foreknown. This very squarely relates to the previous first, what God meant our suffering for good. And our suffering is tied to becoming joint heirs with Christ.

God foreknew some as heirs. And those who were foreknown as heirs, he predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. And he made sure that their path is made certain, all the way to being glorified. Look at verse 17 again - glorified with Christ

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

He's saying that those who suffer with Christ will have an inheritance with Christ. They will share in all things with Christ. And they were predestined for this because they were already known as sons

Look later in the chapter, how it all relates to suffering. What shall separate us from the love of God? And then all manner of suffering is listed.

And Paul asked very pointedly - who shall bring a charge against God's elect?

That is election in a nutshell, and it is substantiated through and through all of scripture

 

[JonC]

The elect are the sons of God. Not children, but sons.

It appeals to an Old Testament understanding of "son" and is the same sense in which Jesus is THE Son of God. He is the Heir of all things (Heb 1:2), who for the joy set before Him endured the cross and then sat at the right hand of God (Heb 12:2)

He is the "monogenes" (only Son c.f. John 3:16) of God, in the same way that Isaac was the monogenes of Abraham (Heb 11:17, Gen 22:2, 12, 16). Though Abraham had other children, Isaac was his only son.

And at the end of Abraham's life, He have to Isaac all that he had (Gen 25:5)

There is much more that can be written about this, I think about those as you see what's written in Romans chapter 8:14-30

14 Those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God

15 we have received the spirit of adoption as Sons

16 the spirit himself testifies that we are the children of God

17 if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ - if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him

The scriptures plainly states that it's those who are led by the spirit who are the sons of God. And it also says that we are joint heirs with Christ if we suffer with him. That's conditional

18 for I am convinced that the sufferings of this present world are not worthy to be compared to the glory that is about to be revealed in us.

The glory - the Inheritance and the honor which comes with it, air condition on whether or not we suffer with Christ.

Read verses 26 and 27, how the spirit helps us in our times of weakness, and intercedes for us. This is relating to our times of suffering

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose

Think of Joseph in Egypt, when his brothers were brought before him. He said to them " you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good"

Denon verse 29, Paul speaks of those who were foreknown. This very squarely relates to the previous first, what God meant our suffering for good. And our suffering is tied to becoming joint heirs with Christ.

God foreknew some as heirs. And those who were foreknown as heirs, he predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. And he made sure that their path is made certain, all the way to being glorified. Look at verse 17 again - glorified with Christ

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

He's saying that those who suffer with Christ will have an inheritance with Christ. They will share in all things with Christ. And they were predestined for this because they were already known as sons

Look later in the chapter, how it all relates to suffering. What shall separate us from the love of God? And then all manner of suffering is listed.

And Paul asked very pointedly - who shall bring a charge against God's elect?

That is election in a nutshell, and it is substantiated through and through all of scripture

I definitely see the “not children but sons” approach (just as both men and women can be viewed as “brothers in Christ”). But the word used in John 1:12 and 11:52 (those who believe have the right to be called children of God; He might gather together into one the children of God) is τέκνον. I am not a Greek student (I am, in fact, of Irish descent) so this is a question and not a declaration. I have noticed that some indicate that this word τέκνον refers to a child of either gender. If that is so, then it also seems that we are rightly called children of God. Do you have any insight on the word used in these two passages?

 

[rsr]

But you won't know if you are among the elect until you reach the end, and look back to see if you finished the course. Even the Apostle Paul said that he hoped that he would attain to the resurrection of Christ, and not that he had already attained it

Very Augustinian.

For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in the mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden; since here we have to beware so much of pride, that even so great an apostle was buffeted by a messenger of Satan, lest he should be lifted up.

 

[JamesL]

I definitely see the “not children but sons” approach (just as both men and women can be viewed as “brothers in Christ”). But the word used in John 1:12 and 11:52 (those who believe have the right to be called children of God; He might gather together into one the children of God) is τέκνον. I am not a Greek student (I am, in fact, of Irish descent) so this is a question and not a declaration. I have noticed that some indicate that this word τέκνον refers to a child of either gender. If that is so, then it also seems that we are rightly called children of God. Do you have any insight on the word used in these two passages?

Yes, we are rightly called children of God. Everyone who believes in Christ is among the redeemed and a child (teknon) of God, and a saint.

But a son is "son of maturity"
Those are the ones in the parable of the soils, who matured and produced fruit (4th soil). The ones who endure chastisement (Heb 12:5-8) are sons. Those children who do not endure are illegitimate. And after enduring, the sons will receive what was promised (a kingdom unshaken - Heb 12:28)

 

[JamesL]

Very Augustinian.

Very Pauline

 

[rsr]

Very Pauline

Which is why Luther quoted Paul and Augustine so often.