What is calvinism?

[Pastor Larry]

And still no verses that tell us that election comes from faith. Why?

You say We know those are elected to salvation is through faith. How do we know this? Where did God say this?

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

The elected Jews was cut for unbelief, but we stand by Faith. We are not to be arrogant but afraid. If God did not spare these natural branches He will not spare us either So we are to continue in God's kindness or we will be cut out.

My faith will never be in election, because I found no hope in it through Israel.

My faith in my salvation will be in Jesus. He is my only hope.

Election is a false hope. Jesus is our only hope. I will never lift up election for salvation only Jesus.

He is the only door to election and His word is the Key.

 

[psalms109:31]

predestined

Through that He foreknew so He also predestined.

It maybe foolishness to them, but God elected by His foreknowledge.

Since it is by grace through faith, so it is those who He foreknew with faith that He elected.

 

[Pastor Larry]

And still no verses ...

Why do you object to posting Scripture? Why not use Scripture to show us your position?

We all know why ... it is because you can't. There is not one verse of Scripture that places election after faith. Your position is not built on Scripture and that is clearly seen.

 

[skypair]

No, but if Jesus paid for all sin, then he must have paid for the sin of unbelief. If he paid for the sin of unbelief, then God cannot justly send someone to hell for their sin of unbelief that was paid for by Christ. Think about it.

I'll go with you on the "unpardonable sin" issue for now. I think there are other verses that don't come to mind but they as well come down to this issue of unbelief. Surely you don't think people will be saved who don't believe??[/quote] That truly would be "fatalistic!"

[/quote]How can God send someone to hell for a sin that was paid for by Christ?[/quote] Again, it's tied to rejection of the Spirit, Larry. If it is up to us to believe (and it is), then it is unpardonable to not believe. And Rom 1 says everyone has been given enough revelation to believe. They are all without excuse.

Larry, I think you are using a "device" to claim that Christ's death is only "efficient" for some. That "device" is BELIEF -- unless you can show me something scriptural to the contrary. I almost can't believe we are having this discussion since you admit that Christ died for all sin, Lar.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Effectual call is the term we use to describe the call in passages like 1 Cor 1 where the “call” is the difference between the saved and unsaved. There is something about being “called” that sets them apart from everyone else.

It is a "device," Larry. As you admit, you can't explain it and that is because no difference exists.

No, not really. It (1Cor 2:!4) is talking about “spiritual things” and you know that because that is what it says. It is talking about why some people understand and others do not, and the contrast in the passage is saved and unsaved.

Of course it is. Did you read my whole exposition? Paul initially came to the Corinthians preaching ONLY Christ and Him crucified because they COULD understand that. NOW he was teaching them about things the lost COULD NOT know or discern -- mysteries of God. So if this is the only scripture you're depending on (and it ususally is), you're "busted!"

That is why you have election after faith, in spite of the fact that there is not one verse of Scripture that supports that. If there were, you would have posted it by now. But you keep dodging because you have none.

You might have asked for one before accusing me of this.

Mt 24:22 - the days are shortened for the elect's (those who are saved) sake.

Mt 24:23 - AC would deceive the very elect (already saved believers).

Mt 24:31 - He sends His angels to gather the elect (believers, Lar, not unbelievers).

Rom 8:33 - who shall lay anything to God's elect (believers already).

Titus 1:1 - I, Paul, a servant of God ... according to the faith of God's elect (believers).

Election -- 4 times in Rom 9-11 concerning ISRAEL, not indvidual salvation.

1Pet 1:10 -- make your calling and election sure. What was that order, Lar? Calling (when one is saved) and election (when one fulfills God's purpose for their life).

There are so many holes in your position it is unreal. It just seems like you haven’t thought much about it outside your little box. And that makes discussion very difficult.

Larry, there are holes in your understanding of scripture. You've "sold yourself out" to Calvinism, friend. Try real hard to be one of those in 1Cor 2 who have the "mind of Christ" and not have the mind of Calvin.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Effectual call is the term we use to describe the call in passages like 1 Cor 1 where the “call” is the difference between the saved and unsaved. There is something about being “called” that sets them apart from everyone else.

It is a "device," Larry. As you admit, you can't explain it and that is because no difference exists.

No, not really. It (1Cor 2:!4) is talking about “spiritual things” and you know that because that is what it says. It is talking about why some people understand and others do not, and the contrast in the passage is saved and unsaved.

Of course it is. Did you read my whole exposition? Paul initially came to the Corinthians preaching ONLY Christ and Him crucified because they COULD understand that. NOW he was teaching them about things the lost COULD NOT know or discern -- mysteries of God. So if this is the only scripture you're depending on (and it ususally is), you're "busted!"

That is why you have election after faith, in spite of the fact that there is not one verse of Scripture that supports that. If there were, you would have posted it by now. But you keep dodging because you have none.

You might have asked for one before accusing me of this.

Mt 24:22 - the days are shortened for the elect's (those who are saved) sake.

Mt 24:23 - AC would deceive the very elect (already saved believers).

Mt 24:31 - He sends His angels to gather the elect (believers, Lar, not unbelievers).

Rom 8:33 - who shall lay anything to God's elect (believers already).

Titus 1:1 - I, Paul, a servant of God ... according to the faith of God's elect (believers).

Election -- 4 times in Rom 9-11 concerning ISRAEL, not indvidual salvation.

1Pet 1:10 -- make your calling and election sure. What was that order, Lar? Calling (when one is saved) and election (when one fulfills God's purpose for their life).

There are so many holes in your position it is unreal. It just seems like you haven’t thought much about it outside your little box. And that makes discussion very difficult.

Larry, there are holes in your understanding of scripture. You've "sold yourself out" to Calvinism, friend. Try real hard to be one of those in 1Cor 2 who have the "mind of Christ" and not just the mind of Calvin.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Acts 13:48 for just one example negates the contentions of Mr. Ps .

All who were ordained to eternal life believed .

The foreordination or appointment was in eternity past . Faith is given in the present . Of couse faith and belief mean the same thing . Some folks really have things so convoluted . In their view God has to look and see who He gave faith to in the future -- then elect them after their free will kicked in and cinched the deal . God is somewhere in the mix . He gets honorable mention .

Sounds good -- but isn't. Fact is, all believers are ordained to eternal life. The implication of the order of mention in that verse is that God ordained that destiny to believers BEFORE creation. Nobody here denies that -- yes, ordination or appointment were eternity past.

Belief and faith are NOT the same thing. Belief can be had where there is no proof but faith IS proof, Heb 11:1.

Your error regarding "elect" is that you see it bestowed on men. As a matter of fact, election is only another name for those correctly who believe in God.

skypair

 

[EdSutton]

Belief and faith are NOT the same thing. Belief can be had where there is no proof but faith IS proof, Heb 11:1.

I disagree with any attempted division between "belief" and "faith", and claim that they are, in fact, the same thing, not to mention the verb form of "believe". The one time belief can be found in Scripture (KJV) is in II Thes. 2:13. That is the same Greek word (pistis) as rendered "faith" many times in the NT, and in fact the verb form (pisteuO) is derived from that noun, in the Greek, and both are derived from (peithO) , "to persuade" (Reference from Wigram, Thayer, & Strong).

As the English language, here to its detriment, does not have a usual verb form for "faith" other than "believe", that is where we get this supposed difference. They are, in fact, the same thing, save one is a noun and the other is a verb.

Ergo, when one "believes", one has "faith"'

Beyond that, overall as to this thread, since there is no longer a 'C' vs. 'A', bit may I say to all:

Ed

 

[psalms109:31]

Jesus is my master

If one cannot be saved until they are elected, then Jesus is not the one who saved election does.

Our beliefs can change the more we grow and learn, faith can never change, like the word of God.

There is a difference between faith and belief a big difference.

Faith is trust no matter what and nothing can change it, belief is something we accept at the moment.

 

[psalms109:31]

Saved

We are saved by grace through faith.

Faith is the only way to enter election to salvation where only Jesus gets the praise

If you enter through election then it is election that gets the praise.

That is one thing that makes my spirit within me mourn is the calvinist praising and lifted up election over my Lord and Master and my God, and my Friend, Jesus

 

[Pastor Larry]

it's tied to rejection of the Spirit, Larry. If it is up to us to believe (and it is), then it is unpardonable to not believe. And Rom 1 says everyone has been given enough revelation to believe. They are all without excuse.

First, that’s not the unpardonable sin. Second, if Jesus paid for every sin, then the sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit must also have been paid for. So God is sending people to hell for sins that were paid for. And that is unjust.

Larry, I think you are using a "device" to claim that Christ's death is only "efficient" for some. That "device" is BELIEF -- unless you can show me something scriptural to the contrary. I almost can't believe we are having this discussion since you admit that Christ died for all sin, Lar.

Virtually no one denies that Christ died for all sin. The issue is did he die for all sin in the same way? I think the answer is no, since not all people have the same outcome.

It is a "device," Larry. As you admit, you can't explain it and that is because no difference exists.

I can’t explain it? Sure I can. I don’t think I ever admitted I can’t explain it. God calls some effectually, giving them the ability and will to believe so that they willing turn to Christ for salvation. He does not do that for everyone, as 1 Cor 1 and John 6 make clear.

Did you read my whole exposition? Paul initially came to the Corinthians preaching ONLY Christ and Him crucified because they COULD understand that. NOW he was teaching them about things the lost COULD NOT know or discern -- mysteries of God. So if this is the only scripture you're depending on (and it ususally is), you're "busted!"

Yes, I read your exposition, and it was wrong. You need to study. You have used this passage to support something it doesn’t support. Paul preached Christ and him crucified as opposed to the wisdom of this world. It was not so they could understand it. It was so they would not be persuaded by smooth speech.

Mt 24:22 - the days are shortened for the elect's (those who are saved) sake.

Mt 24:23 - AC would deceive the very elect (already saved believers).

Mt 24:31 - He sends His angels to gather the elect (believers, Lar, not unbelievers).

Rom 8:33 - who shall lay anything to God's elect (believers already).

Titus 1:1 - I, Paul, a servant of God ... according to the faith of God's elect (believers).

Election -- 4 times in Rom 9-11 concerning ISRAEL, not indvidual salvation.

1Pet 1:10 -- make your calling and election sure. What was that order, Lar? Calling (when one is saved) and election (when one fulfills God's purpose for their life).

None of these show election after faith. The fact that someone who has already believed is elect is obvious. The question is, Were they elect prior to belief? The answer is yes (Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13; 2 tim 2:10). In each of these verse, they are elect before they are saved. Scripture never gives any indication that one is elect because they believe.

You've "sold yourself out" to Calvinism, friend.

No, I haven’t. My position is based on the totality of Scripture.

Try real hard to be one of those in 1Cor 2 who have the "mind of Christ" and not have the mind of Calvin.

I think I have, which is why we differ on this.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If one cannot be saved until they are elected, then Jesus is not the one who saved election does.

That's not true. That a major logical fallacy and a theological fallacy.

There is a difference between faith and belief a big difference.

Not in Scripture there isn't. In Scripture it is the same word.

We are saved by grace through faith.

This is true. Very Calvinistic statement.

Faith is the only way to enter election to salvation where only Jesus gets the praise]

So show us this in Scripture. You still haven't offered any. At least skypair tried (and miserably failed ... but he gave it a shot.)

If you enter through election then it is election that gets the praise.

Perhaps, but you don't enter through election.

That is one thing that makes my spirit within me mourn is the calvinist praising and lifted up election over my Lord and Master and my God, and my Friend, Jesus

This would make my spirit mourn too, if it were true. But it is plainly false. It is an absurd statement, completely misrepresentative.

All this, and you still have offered no Scripture for your position. Aren't you a little ashamed to have not even tried? Should you really expect us to just take your word for it? Why not give us God's word?

 

[psalms109:31]

Election to salvation v. election

Election to salvation v. election

People confuse these two.

There has to be the initial calling of God, the first election.

We cannot come to Jesus unless we are drawn by the Father.

That is the effectual preaching. This has to come first, but being called does not mean you will be saved.

We can be like Abraham and have faith of the word of God or we can be like the young rich ruler and walk away.

The scripture clearly teaches the one that walks away will not be saved.

So faith in Jesus is the only thing that saved, that gives Jesus all the glory.

We are saved by grace through faith.

Election can not save you, but faith will.

As this scripture shows of the natural branches the original elect of God. Jesus also called His disciple's branches and if they didn't abide in Him, that they were good for nothing but the fire.

Romans 11: 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


But praise be to God.

23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Our salvation does not depend on our election, but faith in God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

And still no verses that show that we are elected after we believe? Why?

 

[skypair]

First, that’s not the unpardonable sin. Second, if Jesus paid for every sin, then the sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit must also have been paid for. So God is sending people to hell for sins that were paid for. And that is unjust.

So unbelief is pardonable?

Virtually no one denies that Christ died for all sin. The issue is did he die for all sin in the same way? I think the answer is no, since not all people have the same outcome.

Oh? This might open an interesting avenue of inquiry. Just exactly how and when did Christ pay for the losts' sins differently than the saveds'?

God calls some effectually, giving them the ability and will to believe so that they willing turn to Christ for salvation. He does not do that for everyone, as 1 Cor 1 and John 6 make clear.

So they are "spiritual beings" BEFORE they are called IAW your belief in 1Cor 2:14? See this is just wrong! You acknowledge with Calvin that ALL are totally depraved. So how is it that some are spiritually alive before they are called?? (Please cite the actual verses that you are requesting credibility for, Larry. John 6 has 71 verses. It is not clear you have any proof by you citing the whole chapter.)

Yes, I read your exposition, and it was wrong. You need to study. You have used this passage to support something it doesn’t support. Paul preached Christ and him crucified as opposed to the wisdom of this world. It was not so they could understand it. It was so they would not be persuaded by smooth speech.

Wow! You got all that from reading my post?! Paul said so their faith would stand in the power of God. (2:5)

"HOWEVER..." See that HOWEVER, Larry?? HOWEVER, we speak the wisdom of God to them that are perfect.."(2:6) In other words, now he is going to reveal deeper wisdom ("spiritual things) to them who already had salvational "demonstration of the Spirit and of power." Larry, you're answering reflexively. Open the scriptures and try to concentrate, please. Paul is talking about his preacing to them before (2:1-5) and after (2:6-13) their salvation.

None of these show election after faith. The fact that someone who has already believed is elect is obvious. The question is, Were they elect prior to belief? The answer is yes (Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13; 2 tim 2:10).

Larry, only the last of those verses even uses the word "elect." You're "pressing" your theology into scripture.

Think about it -- you are mistaking the word "elect" with "chosen." If you want to say "elect," find the verses for that. All the verses I supplied show believers being called elect -- never unbelievers, never believers when they were still unbelievers, Larry.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Think about it -- you are mistaking the word "elect" with "chosen." If you want to say "elect," find the verses for that. All the verses I supplied show believers being called elect -- never unbelievers, never believers when they were still unbelievers, Larry.

skypair

What??

Are you joking?

Do you not know what the English word elect means?

e·lect v
1. vt to choose somebody by a vote, for example, for public office, an official role, or membership of some group
2. vt to make a decision to do something
3. vti to choose or select something, particularly a subject or course to study at college
4. vt to choose somebody by divine will for salvation

adj
1. chosen by a vote but not yet formally installed in office (used after a noun, usually in combination)
2. specially chosen by God for favor, salvation, or a task

npl
1. people specially chosen or favored by God, for example, those chosen by God for salvation
2. a specially privileged or gifted group (literary)

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

Even the Greek word...Chosen "eklegomai"

Means..

1) to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self
a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
b) choosing one for an office
c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

The English word "elect" is…"eklektos" in Greek and comes from the root Greek word "eklegomai" (chosen)

1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the?most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

 

[psalms109:31]

Election to salvation.

We can see from the beginning of the word who God has elected to be saved from the word of God that those who have faith.

We have no problem with the elect of God.

We also can see from the beginning that being the elect of God does not assure you salvation from the jewish elect that was cut out for unbelief.

In all of this we see that just being the elect does not guarentee salvation, but that those who have faith our elected to salvation.

Whoever believes shall be saved.

We cannot understand the will of God by viewing a few verses but seeing the word of God from the begining to end.

 

[skypair]

Do you not know what the English word elect means?

Sorry, arthur. That was rather without explanation, wasn't it.

They mean the same thing but not what Larry avers. The elect and chosen to a purpose, not to salvation. Whether individual or nation, they are only become "elect" or "chosen" for God's purposes by being saved by God. Does that help?

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

We can see from the beginning of the word who God has elected to be saved from the word of God that those who have faith. ... In all of this we see that just being the elect does not guarentee salvation, but that those who have faith our elected to salvation.[/quote[WHERE CAN WE SEE THIS???? I have been asking for several pages now and you keep saying this but refuse to show us where. So far, I have seen it only in posts under your name. I have yet to see any Scripture for this.

Whoever believes shall be saved.

That's not in dispute.

So where's the Scripture?