Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I quoted Jesus as well. He said the only ones that can come to him are those given to him by the Father. Judas was always doomed for destruction. He was given to him for that reason, not for salvation.
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What Is Free Will?
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"Scripture interprets Scripture" is a popular axiom.
I quoted Jesus saying ONE given him by the father DID get away.
One cannot get away if one was not possessed. Judas was called a "sheep" (Mt. 10:16), a "disciple" (Mt. 10:1), an "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4), one of "the twelve" (Luke 22:47) , sent to "proclaim the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2), "chosen" (John 6:70), and a "friend" (Mt. 26:50).
Sometimes sheep, like Judas, get lost and fall away. (Acts 1:25). You cannot fall away from that which you never belonged. The example of Judas alone refutes the core tenet of Calvinism. Calvinism can only stand IF Judas is saved and enjoying heaven right now.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
I agree.
But God uses all kinds of stuff to intervene
1. Nature (romans 1)
2. The law (gal 3)
3. The word
4. Other believers
5. The Holy spirit.
I believe God in omniscience also knows who will repent and what it will take to get them to repent. So not everyone will recieve all of those things,, Yet still with the law (written in our dna) and with nature. no one has an excuse
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
I did answer you.
I did not pick and two verses out of John, I chose the whole passage, And in that very passage Jesus said you do not see because you do not believe.
That is the answer.
My question to you is, Is it Gods fault they did not believe? Did he withhold their ability to believe?
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Judas was never saved though
As I posted. Jesus said you do not see because you do not believe, Judas was included in those who did not believe.
Judas never believed.
Scripture refers to the saved as "sheep". Jesus explicitly referred to Judas as a sheep (Mt. 10:16 and Mk. 14:27). Furthermore, you cannot fall away from that which you never belonged. (Acts 1:25)
Remember Judas was destined to reign and rule with Christ as well...
"So Jesus said to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" Matthew 19:28
Sometimes sheep wander away and become lost. Jesus even gave a whole parable about sheep getting lost. Luke 15:4-7. Something must belong to someone first in order for it to become lost.
You can’t lose something that isn’t your to begin wth.
Ergo, when Jesus said Judas was lost (John 17:12), he makes it clear Judas was at one time one of his "sheep” and thus one of his own.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No, you did not address my question you redirected. Romans 1 says it is the unbeliever that is at fault. Now deal with what I said about Jesus saying nobody can come to him unless it is granted by the Father. Why are you avoiding this? It also says all the Father gives him will come to him. Why are you avoiding this?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Matthew 10:16 did not say Judas was one of the sheep. Read it again. Apostle does not equate saved. Do you believe you can lose salvation? Same thing with twelve, has no bearing. John 6:70, is that the Father choosing for salvation? No. It is the FATHER who gives, not Jesus giving to himself. Friend in Mat. 26:50 also does not mean saved or elect.
The question what was he lost from? Salvation? Election? No. He was not lost from his purpose. He was lost from Jesus' inner circle.
So no, Calvinism does not necessitate that Judas be in Heaven right now, you simply don't know how to interpret Scripture either by ignorance, or willful ignorant stubborness.
37818
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Acts 1:25, ". . . from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. . . ."
Mark 14:26-28, ". . . But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee. . . ." Judas was was not present then when Jesus said this.
37818
Well-Known Member
Matthew 22:12-13, ". . . And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. . . ."
"These TWELVE Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, 'Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.'... 'Behold, I send you [the twelve] forth AS SHEEP in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.'" (Matthew 10:5, 16)
"And in the evening he cometh with THE TWELVE...And Jesus saith unto them, 'All YE shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the SHEEP shall be scattered.'" (Mark 14:7, 27)
So there we have Jesus explicitly calling Judas a sheep. He also called him a "disciple" (Mt. 10:1), an "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4), one of "the twelve" (Luke 22:47) , sent to "proclaim the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2), "chosen" (John 6:70), and yes, a "friend" (Mt. 26:50).
If Calvinism were indeed true, Judas should be their poster boy and sitting in heaven right now.
It should come as a comfort to know that God still considers his followers friends, even when he knows they will eventually fall away.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
As, keyword, AS sheep. It does not call Judas part of the sheep.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
What ar you going to romans 1 for?
You said look at John 6 and tell you. I used John 6 to tell you.
Avoiding what? If you do not believe, you will not be saved, it is not granted by the father that unbeliever will be saved.
You remove believe out of the equation. Salvation is based on who believes and who does not believe.
It is our choice. Those who do not will end up in hell. They send themselves their because they are condemned because they do not believe.
Those who do will be given eternal life.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I went to Romans 1 because of your question.
Agree, those who do not believe will not be saved. I do not take that out of the question. But no, that is not what salvation is based on, that is how it is activated. It is based on God's choosing. Those who believe come to Christ but only those granted by the Father can do so. That is what John 6 says.
And no, we do not get to choose who God saves. God already made the choice.
No, the keyword is SHEEP. Jesus is using a metaphor, unless you believe Jesus thought his disciples were actual sheep; that is ovis aries.
Again, Jesus explicitly calls Judas a SHEEP. Calvinism can only be true if Judas is sitting in heaven right now smiling down on you.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Simile, not metaphor. And again you put forth nonsense about Calvinism which you obviously do not understand.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Jesus said whever believes is not condemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already.
Your right, we do not get to chose who God saves. But he does ge to chose who he saved, And he chose to save those who believe.
Did you ever see a Calvinist complain about me always posting anti-Calvinist posts. But no mention is made of the endless pro-Calvinist posts placed on the board.
1) Did the OP define free will? Nope.
2) Can a person choose to ignore a desire (say fleshly desire) and place his or her mind upon some spiritual things? What does scripture say?
3) Are fallen humans predisposed to sin? What does the bible say.
4) Can a human person ignore his or her predisposition and choose to follow his or her understanding of God's will? What does the bible say?
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