Disagree
Imparted by the Spirit of God. We are totally depraved. We could never come to God on our own unless God opened up our hearts.
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What is meant by Cals when they ask: do you believe "by our own ability?"
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Disagree
Imparted by the Spirit of God. We are totally depraved. We could never come to God on our own unless God opened up our hearts.
How do you reconcile those statements with the statements of Jesus?
It was Jesus who said: "Unless you have faith as a child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God," indicating that even small children have faith, and not necessarily saved children.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Mandy,
Are these inherently different in properties? And don't forget, the fact we can have faith is because He designed it to be so.
That is not all Jesus said:
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
DHK did not misapply this verse whatsoever.
Faith doesn't change. Faith is faith. Faith is confidence in the word of another. As children have faith in their parents, an older person can put faith in Christ (when he comes to know about Christ and salvation).
The nature of faith doesn't change. It is the object of faith that changes.
The object of the faith of a child is his parents.
The object of the faith a believer is Christ. If it is not the Christ of the Bible then he won't be saved. Thus Christ is defined by the Word of God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
I believe faith is a God given ability that ALL men have. It is the object of faith that we lacked. Without God's revealing himself and his Son Jesus through the word of God, no man could possibly believe.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
God's grace that brings salvation has APPEARED to all men. It has been made manifest to them. But what is this grace? The next verse shows, it is grace that teaches us.
Now, how did you learn of Jesus? How were you taught about Jesus? Were you walking around absolutely ignorant of Jesus Christ and suddenly God zapped you and you immediately knew and understood the gospel?
No, you were taught by the scriptures, the word of God. God's word is the grace that reveals Jesus to us, teaches us, enlightens us.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Folks think it demeaning to say a person can be enlightened by the scriptures and need something more, when in fact they are demeaning the POWER of God's word. God's words are not mere words, God created the universe with his word. His word is truth.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jesus is the Word of God.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
When you deny that the word of God alone is enough to convict a man of his sins, melt the hardest heart, and persuade and convince a man to trust Christ, you are denying the power of God's word. Nothing more is needed.
You do not see men regenerated to believe in the scriptures, you see men PERSUADED by the word of God.
Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
I have heard the analogy that the Word of God is like the shining sun. Some men's hearts are like wax and are melted by the sun, while some men's hearts are like clay and are hardened by the sun. I think this a good analogy. The man who wants to know the truth will hear God's word and come to Christ as he said in Jn 6:45. Those who love evil and want nothing to do with God will be hardened by his word as the sun hardens clay.
But Paul persuaded men. They were not zapped to believe.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
There is no mention here, or anywhere else in scripture of men being supernaturally regenerated to believe. They were PERSUADED or convinced from the word of God. These Jews knew the scriptures, they knew many of the prophecies of the promised Christ. Paul showed them from the scriptures that Jesus fulfilled these prophecies and was indeed the promised Christ they had waited for. He convinced them through the word of God. No magic here.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
How did the Adam Clarke quote along with all the answers I gave you not suffice?
To some "natural" means "on your own," but I don't believe we we have faith in Christ "on our own." As JF correctly explained, we must be graced by the gospel to believe upon Christ unto Salvation; and since the gospel IS a work of the Holy Spirit after birth; then I affirm the need for prior working of grace by the Holy Spirit for someone to come to saving faith. People aren't born able to believe in Christ unless Christ is first revealed to them. You just believe He is revealed through means which effectually cause saving faith, I don't. I believe men can be given all that is needed to respond in faith, but rebel against God and further grow hardened.
How much more clearly can I explain this?
Common sense?
You use faith everytime you drive, you trust that your brakes will stop you. If you thought your brakes would fail, you would not dare drive (or at least I wouldn't).
You walk across a little wooden bridge in the mountains. That is faith. You wouldn't dare walk on that bridge if you did not believe it able to support you.
A skydiver uses faith. He believes his parachute will open and get him to the ground or he would not dare jump.
You use faith when you shop for groceries. When you buy a can of Campbell's Soup, you are trusting that the contents are just what the package says on the outside and is safe to eat. If you hear a news report that a batch of Campbell's has botulism, you quit buying it until you hear it is safe again. You do not trust it because of the news you heard. When you hear again it is safe, you resume buying it. Faith comes by hearing.
Folks have and use faith continually. But you could not trust Christ unless God had revealed Jesus to you through the scriptures. Once you have the scriptures, you can decide to believe it true and trust God's words, or you can believe it a myth as an athiest does and not believe it. Faith is a choice.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
What did Paul imply is needed to believe here? He implied they needed to hear of Jesus. Then he asks how they can hear without a preacher? No magic here folks, people need to read the scriptures or hear a preacher preach the scriptures to believe. That's it.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Mandy, my question for you would be this: Why would God create a man with the ability to place their faith in a false god, but not the real One after both have been clearly revealed to him?
Wouldn't that be a perfect excuse for those who don't believe in the one true God? Couldn't a Buddhist just say, "I couldn't place my faith in you so I placed it in this fat statue?"
Wouldn't that be a perfect excuse for those who don't believe in the one true God? Couldn't a Buddhist just say, "I couldn't place my faith in you so I placed it in this fat statue?"
I think where folks get mixed up is that they think folks like myself who believe all men can believe are denying that something supernatural happens at salvation. I am not denying that at all. Something absolutely SUPERNATURAL happens at salvation. But that supernatural work is performed by God.
We believe. That is natural, we can all do it, it is a God given ability.
When we believe, God SUPERNATURALLY regenerates us. He has all the power, he alone can save us. But God has ordained and decreed that a man must trust his Son Jesus before he will supernaturally regenerate that man.
We believe (natural)-----> God regenerates (supernatural)
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
If we receive Jesus (willingness) and believe on his name (trust, dependence), then God will give us the POWER to BECOME (supernatural) a son of God.
God does not ask us to do something we are not able to do, he asks us simply to believe his promise and trust his Word. If we do, he will supernaturally regenerate us (born again) by the Holy Spirit.
We believe. That is natural, we can all do it, it is a God given ability.
When we believe, God SUPERNATURALLY regenerates us. He has all the power, he alone can save us. But God has ordained and decreed that a man must trust his Son Jesus before he will supernaturally regenerate that man.
We believe (natural)-----> God regenerates (supernatural)
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
If we receive Jesus (willingness) and believe on his name (trust, dependence), then God will give us the POWER to BECOME (supernatural) a son of God.
God does not ask us to do something we are not able to do, he asks us simply to believe his promise and trust his Word. If we do, he will supernaturally regenerate us (born again) by the Holy Spirit.
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It appears you are making some assumptions about what I believe. I have never said God has done anything you have posted here.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Jesus here shows man can believe in God, he says they believe. And he tells them to believe in him also. So, you see, you can believe in God and not believe in Jesus. The Catholics believe in God, but they trust in works and do not believe or trust Jesus to save them.
Paul believed in God, he really did. But he did not believe in Jesus until Jesus revealed himself to Paul on the road to Damascus.
Cornelius believed in God, he was devout and prayed always. And God heard his prayers. But he had not heard of Jesus and therefore could not believe on him. So, God sent an angel to appear to Cornelius and had him send for Peter. Peter came and preached the gospel of Jesus and Cornelius believed ALSO in Jesus and was saved.
Jesus here shows man can believe in God, he says they believe. And he tells them to believe in him also. So, you see, you can believe in God and not believe in Jesus. The Catholics believe in God, but they trust in works and do not believe or trust Jesus to save them.
Paul believed in God, he really did. But he did not believe in Jesus until Jesus revealed himself to Paul on the road to Damascus.
Cornelius believed in God, he was devout and prayed always. And God heard his prayers. But he had not heard of Jesus and therefore could not believe on him. So, God sent an angel to appear to Cornelius and had him send for Peter. Peter came and preached the gospel of Jesus and Cornelius believed ALSO in Jesus and was saved.
So your answer is that men have faith by nature, but that it lies dormant waiting for the proper stimuli.
Why couldn't you just say so without all the fluff?
Faith is always active, just as children have faith in their parents.
It is the object of the faith that changes. It is only "dormant" in the sense that: 1) either the gospel has never been presented to the individual,
or 2) the gospel has been presented and he has made his choice to believe or not to believe. The object of the gospel is Christ. Faith is still faith. Now the faith that we are speaking of comes from a specific type of knowledge.
Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Everything that we need to know about Christ is in the Word of God.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I would never say it like that. Faith lying dormant? That makes no sense, really. You are overcomplicating things.
Someone hears God's appeal for them, an enemy and sinner, to be reconciled to God and they decide if they want to believe that truth or trade it in for a lie. If they go on living their own life in rebellion toward God they will continue to grow harder and harder to the revelation of God each day they live in rebellion.
Calvinists have no room to talk about fluff. Everything needs a few pages of explanation to help people swallow that pill.
It can't be much simpler than what I've explained. People hear God's appeal for reconciliation and respond either in faith or in rebellion and are thus held to account for their response. Very simple.
OK....I see their concept of Christ dieing on the Cross as "IMPOTENT"
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