Then you don't understand my belief.
That's the understatement of the year... :laugh:
As stated, we both affirm that God works to change the wills/minds/hearts of man, but we disagree as to the effectuality of his means. My argument was that God uses "normative" means such as circumstances, envy, persuasion, scripture, pain, nature etc etc (all biblical examples) to reveal himself and his will to man. These can all be "traded in for lie" (Rom 1) as man is able to rebel and resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51) and divine revelation.
Of course He uses "normative" means. He uses whichever means He desires! If, on the other hand, you mean to say that He can ONLY use some circumstance that can be described in very human terms of cause and effect, then you have neutered the Almighty God of the universe and rendered Him something other than His self-described "all powerful" and "all knowing" state. In what you describe above, it is STILL God doing the action to bring a rebellious individual, who may want nothing at all of God, to repentance!
In the verse I quoted, we have Jesus teaching men to pray that God will is done on earth as it is in heaven. Why? Is there any difference in the Calvinistic way of viewing the world?
I'm not sure that this is pertinent to the thread. As I see it, however, you are thinking that there is some hindrance to God's sovereignty on earth unless WE first enable it. That doesn't make... Either God is sovereign, and as we pray, directed by His Holy Spirit, in accord with His will, or God is not sovereign until we allow Him to act. The God I see in Scripture is sovereign -- period. Our prayers are merely a means to be part of His work on this earth.
You do pray in accordance with the Holy Spirit, do you not? Or are your prayers the actions of your own heart? Just wondering, for why else would Jesus teach us to pray in accordance with God's divine will, expressed in heaven and on earth if that were something not possible to achieve?
Also, it has Jesus teaching men that when we are persistent in our prayer that God will respond to his children granting them the Holy Spirit. Just how does that fit the model you are attempting to promote?
It fits perfectly. See above... But, I do see a hitch in your harness... Does the Holy Spirit indwell true regenerated believers or does He come and go depending on what we do? Have you removed the sovereignty of God to the point where even the Holy Spirit's coming is subject to your own whim?
And for what purpose might you pray for a lost soul? If they are elect God will save them anyway and if they aren't you're wasting your breathe because apparently you have more mercy on that person than God did.
Now, Skandelon, you know better than this. I even gigged you on this same point in another thread the other day. Elect does not equal "saved." Elect equals "elect." "Saved" is a broad category that describes a number of related events, election being but one of them. Why do you insist on trotting out this defeated argument time after time?
To the greater question above, we pray for lost souls because in God's economy, that is what HE commanded us to do. We are to pray for the elect, and pray that they might be made part of His kingdom. That is precisely because "elect" does not equal "saved" as expressed above.
I know that you despise Calvinists, but would your attitude make us out to be a people who ignore God's Word, God's commands, or even God Himself? Sure seems like it at times!
When a heart is changed all glory goes to God for changing it, but when its not all blame goes to man for resisting that which God earnestly appealed to be changed.
That is your take on the subject... I would see it differently.
We CERTAINLY would not give man any glory for choosing God. I can't find a single place in the Scriptures that indicate that man should have that sort of glory, reserved only for God.
About the heart change issue, God may be saying, "Not now," or "Not ever." We cannot apply "blame" for what we do not know. Some come the moment the gospel is preached. Others take years. Some, not at all, and they die in their sin. We cannot know because we can only know what God has told US to do in faith. We don't know who are the elect, or even the number of the elect. We present the gospel to all people and make the elect disciples when they hear and respond to the effectual call of God, are regenerated, are justified, adopted, and are given the gift of faith/repentance in order to begin their sanctification. We then edify the believer through the command to disciple them so as to walk with them in perseverance until that day when we are glorified and enter God's presence.
