What is the role of women in the Church?

[revmwc]

Yes, I believe he would include women as disciples if he were now on earth for the first time. There is scripture to support the belief that there was a woman apostle, Junia.






Note: King James and several others say "of note among the apostles." Unfortunately in English this can be interpreted as supporting that she was an apostle, or that she was well known to the apostles. Both interpretations can be argued. Other translations make it clear that Junia was a woman. In all the Greek and Latin manuscripts that we have from that era, Juinia is always speaking about or of a woman.

You can reject this only be taking a liberal interpretation as all the evidence from the manuscripts is Junia was a woman. I know this is a very hard pill for many men to swallow.

So which one of the 12 was not an Apostle? Paul, Peter, John one of the others since their were to only be 12 Apostles per scripture which one did Junia replace?

 

[gb93433]

God's paln was for man to teach the Scripture from the start.
Adam taught Eve and they fell into disobedience.

Your statements seem contradictory. Are you saying they fell into disobedience because the man taught Eve?

God gave man the dominion and the responsibility of Spiritual authority to teach his family and all the word. Women have their place as help meet helping to teach the children and other women but are not to teach men, that is out of God's order.

If you agree with what you just stated then you must stand against the majority of home schoolers. Most home schooled children I know are taught by their mothers.

 

[revmwc]

Your statements seem contradictory. Are you saying they fell into disobedience because the man taught Eve?

If you agree with what you just stated then you must stand against the majority of home schoolers. Most home schooled children I know are taught by their mothers.

First he taught Eve. Then they fell from disobedience after she was tempted.

Never home schooled my children, know people that do and most of the time the mom and dad are both involved in the teaching of the children. My point was he is to teach the spiritual things and be the spiritual head of that home. Women are to stand beside him and help in those things not be a footstool for him to walk all over. They teach the children and the elder women teach the younger women all this is laid out in Paul's teaching. She is just not to teach the men plain and simple scripture says it and it is proven out in scripture.

 

[Crabtownboy]

So which one of the 12 was not an Apostle? Paul, Peter, John one of the others since their were to only be 12 Apostles per scripture which one did Junia replace?

Surely you jest with your question.

Obviously the 12 men were apostles and we are all aware of this. However, and I may be wrong, I do not know that the NT says there were only 12. The twelve were special, that is a certainty. Also, we do not know that after his resurrection that Jesus did not include others in his inner circle as apostles.

There may be other writings from that time that speak of other disciples. I am not sure about that. However, when the canon was set it was set by men and it is possible they did not include some books that were inspired, but for political or cultural reasons the priests, monks, etc. did not include them as they wanted women "put in their place" and in their opinion women were not to be considered in any as equal to men.

That might make a good thread for general discussion.

 

[revmwc]

Surely you jest with your question.

Obviously the 12 men were apostles and we are all aware of this. However, and I may be wrong, I do not know that the NT says there were only 12. The twelve were special, that is a certainty. Also, we do not know that after his resurrection that Jesus did not include others in his inner circle as apostles.

There may be other writings from that time that speak of other disciples. I am not sure about that. However, when the canon was set it was set by men and it is possible they did not include some books that were inspired, but for political or cultural reasons the priests, monks, etc. did not include them as they wanted women "put in their place" and in their opinion women were not to be considered in any as equal to men.

That might make a good thread for general discussion.

Well let's ee:

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb

This verse apparently says the twelve apostles of the lamb, their names will be on the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem. So will Junia be there? Will it Matthias or Paul.

12 tribes, twelve apostles chosen by Christ 11 of which became apostles and Paul the 12th.
Ishmael even had 12 princes.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

Which 12 will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Scripture is very clear their are and have only been 12 Apostles of which Paul became the 12th and there is no scriptural back up that says that Junia nor Andonicus were apostles it says they were marked by or of note amoung them.

1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

We don't know if they even met this qualification.

Notice Paul said the proof of his Apostleship was that he had seen Jesus Christ our Lord, He had see the risen Lord on the road to Damascus. Not one person today can make that claim and therefore no one qualifies as an Apostle, because no one in our time has seen the Risen Lord. For He is seated at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us and waiting on the Father to make His enemies His footstool.

 

[gb93433]

First he taught Eve. Then they fell from disobedience after she was tempted.

Never home schooled my children, know people that do and most of the time the mom and dad are both involved in the teaching of the children. My point was he is to teach the spiritual things and be the spiritual head of that home. Women are to stand beside him and help in those things not be a footstool for him to walk all over. They teach the children and the elder women teach the younger women all this is laid out in Paul's teaching. She is just not to teach the men plain and simple scripture says it and it is proven out in scripture.

I could not agree more. I am sure you know the real truth though. The husband sits on the couch because "he worked hard." While his wife is doing the rest. I will never forget my first introduction to lazy men. A church called me and asked me some questions. I followed with some questions and they were offended because they did not like it that I asked some questions. I guess they thought they were too good for that. Later another church called and the lady asked if I visited people. I told he that I did. She said that was food because the men are so busy that they do not have time to do much. I tightened things up a little and asked if all of them were dairy farmers. She said that they were not. She told me that they did. I told her that I grew up on a dairy farm not far from their chruch and we had time to do what we thought was important. I went onto tell her that I did ministry in teams and was about training men to lead. She started giving me excuses why the men did not have time. I told her that I was no longer interested. She told me that I had said I was interested. I told her that I was interested until she told me that the men did not want to do ministry. Essentially she told me they were lazy. That church needs to disband and go somewhere else where they can warm a pew.

Today that same church has less people than it did then.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Well let's ee:

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb

This verse apparently says the twelve apostles of the lamb, their names will be on the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem. So will Junia be there? Will it Matthias or Paul.

12 tribes, twelve apostles chosen by Christ 11 of which became apostles and Paul the 12th.
Ishmael even had 12 princes.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

Which 12 will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Scripture is very clear their are and have only been 12 Apostles of which Paul became the 12th and there is no scriptural back up that says that Junia nor Andonicus were apostles it says they were marked by or of note amoung them.

1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

We don't know if they even met this qualification.

Notice Paul said the proof of his Apostleship was that he had seen Jesus Christ our Lord, He had see the risen Lord on the road to Damascus. Not one person today can make that claim and therefore no one qualifies as an Apostle, because no one in our time has seen the Risen Lord. For He is seated at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us and waiting on the Father to make His enemies His footstool.

I agree with all you quoted ... but none say that the number of apostles were restricted to 12. It does reinforce my suggesting that the 12 were the core leaders.

As for Paul saying his proof was he had seen Jesus then it lends support to what I have been saying there may have been more who could be called apostles. Many, many followers had seen Jesus. Junia probably was one of them.

It is an article of faith unprovable either way IMHO.

 

[revmwc]

I agree with all you quoted ... but none say that the number of apostles were restricted to 12. It does reinforce my suggesting that the 12 were the core leaders.

As for Paul saying his proof was he had seen Jesus then it lends support to what I have been saying there may have been more who could be called apostles. Many, many followers had seen Jesus. Junia probably was one of them.

It is an article of faith unprovable either way IMHO.

With the number 12 in scripture representing completion or perfection. 12= Govenrmental perfection then this two would lend itself to just 12 Apostles.

According to the Greek we have episEmoi for noted which means notable, en=Amoung, tois = the, apostolois = apostles. So Andonicus and Junia were notable amoung the apostles, the Greek proves it out and says nothing about thenm being apostles but they were notable amoung them. People seem to try to read their interpretation into this, but the Textus Receptus Greek to English bears it out, they were notable amoung the Apostles. A bit like Will Rogers was a notable speaker amoung the Senators but was not a Senator he held no specific office. My dad was notable amoung the church I grew up in but never held an office in it. That is what Paul was saying of Andronicus and Junia.

 

[Jerome]

the church I pastored had a women music director and she lead the youth also, bible says nothing that a women can't do those jobs.

Of course a man doing that might be called a music minister or a youth pastor.

"Director" seems to be a popular euphemism for these 'gender gospel' folks to assign a women leader. Their dogma/traditions just won't let them use 'pastor' with her.

Also "administrator" and "coordinator" LOL

 

[DaChaser1]

With the number 12 in scripture representing completion or perfection. 12= Govenrmental perfection then this two would lend itself to just 12 Apostles.

According to the Greek we have episEmoi for noted which means notable, en=Amoung, tois = the, apostolois = apostles. So Andonicus and Junia were notable amoung the apostles, the Greek proves it out and says nothing about thenm being apostles but they were notable amoung them. People seem to try to read their interpretation into this, but the Textus Receptus Greek to English bears it out, they were notable amoung the Apostles. A bit like Will Rogers was a notable speaker amoung the Senators but was not a Senator he held no specific office. My dad was notable amoung the church I grew up in but never held an office in it. That is what Paul was saying of Andronicus and Junia.

Why does it seem that those who CANNOT produce ONE verse to support ordaining women as pastors in churches feel that the Apostles. jesus, God were male biased against women, they looked down women as being "inferior' to men?

 

[Crabtownboy]

With the number 12 in scripture representing completion or perfection. 12= Govenrmental perfection then this two would lend itself to just 12 Apostles.

I agree with your statement on the number 12. And, I do think the core group was 12. Jesus needed a small group to teach more deeply than others. By all I have read about small groups 12 is the maximum number that a group can have and still be called a small group. But I do not see this as negating having apostles outside that core group.

According to the Greek we have episEmoi for noted which means notable, en=Amoung, tois = the, apostolois = apostles. So Andonicus and Junia were notable amoung the apostles, the Greek proves it out and says nothing about thenm being apostles but they were notable amoung them. People seem to try to read their interpretation into this, but the Textus Receptus Greek to English bears it out, they were notable amoung the Apostles. A bit like Will Rogers was a notable speaker amoung the Senators but was not a Senator he held no specific office. My dad was notable amoung the church I grew up in but never held an office in it. That is what Paul was saying of Andronicus and Junia.

I a believe in another post, where I quoted the Romans passage from several translations, that English here leaves it open to several interpretations. I do not know about Greek as I have never studied Greek ... so I am stuck with English. :tear: In fact, the joke in Europe about how everyone in heaven will speak English because it is the only language Americians [USA Americans] can learn how to speak applies to me. :laugh:

I do believe that early priests, monks, etc. made considerable efforts to limit our knowledge of what women did who were contemporaries and followers of Jesus. I have read this, but as I am not an expert in this area I have to go on what I have read and what makes sense. We know that many women were believers and important during the years of Jesus' ministry on earth. I wish we had more writings on his life.



By the way, I really like Will Rogers.

One of my heroes who is still living is Will Campbell.

 

[revmwc]

Of course a man doing that might be called a music minister or a youth pastor.

"Director" seems to be a popular euphemism for these 'gender gospel' folks to assign a women leader. Their dogma/traditions just won't let them use 'pastor' with her.

Also "administrator" and "coordinator" LOL

The churches I served in as music and youth never called me the minister of music, music minister, music director, youth director never youth pastor or pastor of youth. Many churches don't look at those positions as pastoral positions. However even if you call them music minister or youth pastor they still aren't teaching men scripture, still not in a spiritual place of authority over the men.

 

[Jerome]

RevWMC, how's about doing one of your famous 'word studies' on apostle in Acts 14:14?

Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

 

[revmwc]

I agree with your statement on the number 12. And, I do think the core group was 12. Jesus needed a small group to teach more deeply than others. By all I have read about small groups 12 is the maximum number that a group can have and still be called a small group. But I do not see this as negating having apostles outside that core group.



I a believe in another post, where I quoted the Romans passage from several translations, that English here leaves it open to several interpretations. I do not know about Greek as I have never studied Greek ... so I am stuck with English. :tear: In fact, the joke in Europe about how everyone in heaven will speak English because it is the only language Americians [USA Americans] can learn how to speak applies to me. :laugh:

I do believe that early priests, monks, etc. made considerable efforts to limit our knowledge of what women did who were contemporaries and followers of Jesus. I have read this, but as I am not an expert in this area I have to go on what I have read and what makes sense. We know that many women were believers and important during the years of Jesus' ministry on earth. I wish we had more writings on his life.



By the way, I really like Will Rogers.

One of my heroes who is still living is Will Campbell.

We know Priscilla along with Aquilla were very much involved in ministry, even helping to instruct Appollos outside the church. Many wives have stood right along beside their husbands and served under his leadership, this could be the case with Junia and Andonicus, they could have been married and serving together. Pheobe was a motherly type servant probably listed amoung the widows as Paul put it in another passage. But none seem to have had a teaching position over men by themselves. All seem to be listed as those who serve God right along with the men. Just not as leaders over men or as teachers of men. Closest in the O.T. was Deborah the prophetesses but she too worked with Barak as joint judges.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Other apostles in the New Testament

Barnabas ... Acts 14:14
Andronicus and Junia Rom 16:7
Silas 1 Thes. 1:1 and 2:6
Timothy 1 Thes. 1:1 and 2:6
Apollos 1 Cor. 4:9 [Apollos is included when this is read in context.

So we know there were other apostles other than the 12. My guess is we do not have all their names, so we do not know just how many there were.

 

[Jerome]

The churches I served in as music and youth never called me the minister of music, music minister, music director, youth director never youth pastor or pastor of youth.

Could you please clarify/rewrite this. I can't follow what you are saying. Thanks.

 

[revmwc]

RevWMC, how's about doing one of your famous 'word studies' on apostle in Acts 14:14?

Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Apostolos = a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ

in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers

of Barnabas

of Timothy and Silvanus

In this case Paul and Barnanbus had been sent out as messenger or delgates of the Chruch. However the term used in the passage with Andronicus and Junia says they were notble amoung the Apostolos.

Hope it helps.

 

[Jerome]

Huh?

I thought their were to only be twelve apostles per Scripture.
Which one did Barnabas replace?

 

[Crabtownboy]

We know Priscilla along with Aquilla were very much involved in ministry, even helping to instruct Appollos outside the church.

I agree. However their house may have been considered the church. We do not know. In very early Christianity Christians often met in houses as no 'church buildings' had been constructed yet.

Many wives have stood right along beside their husbands and served under his leadership, this could be the case with Junia and Andonicus, they could have been married and serving together.

Yes, they may have been married. I do not know that we really know if this is true or not. But, even being married does not mean that Junia was not an apostle. At least I do not see it as proof of this.

Pheobe was a motherly type servant probably listed amoung the widows as Paul put it in another passage.

In my mind Phoebe was a deacon in that the word used to describe her, that is often translated as servant, is the same word that is translated as deacon over 20 times in other locations in the NT.

But none seem to have had a teaching position over men by themselves. All seem to be listed as those who serve God right along with the men. Just not as leaders over men or as teachers of men. Closest in the O.T. was Deborah the prophetesses but she too worked with Barak as joint judges.

We really do not know if any women, like Priscilla, taught men. We do know that Aquilla is not always mentioned when Priscilla is mentioned. We do not know if he had died or was simply absent. But

 

[Jerome]

Also could you explain your pronouncement that it's fine for women to teach Scripture to teenaged young men?