What is the role of women in the Church?

[DaChaser1]

That is not what was behind the question of course. Would God call her to teach men or to usurp authority over men?

Only the "God" of the contemporary church that is seeking to bring "Paul/Bible" updated into the 21 Century !

 

[Crabtownboy]

Anything , except that one position of a pastor!

Never, never, never try to limit God in what he can do or in what he will call others to do. He will not fit into any of our pigeonholes.

The vast majority of really good sermons I have heard in the last 15 years have been by women. The most caring, compassionate pastors I have known in my life were women.

As a Baptist, as a Christian, no man nor woman has authority over others. Only God has authority over us and that includes all of us. Man nor woman does not have such authority.

Indeed, if we are what we say we are then everyone, every Christian is either clergy or laity. There is no real division. It is simply that each of us is as a Christian is called to our individual ministries by God. The role of the minister of a church is to prepare the other ministers of his congregation to perform their ministries in the world, in their jobs where he cannot go and to people he can never see or talk to.

 

[DaChaser1]

Never, never, never try to limit God in what he can do or in what he will call others to do. He will not fit into any of our pigeonholes.

The vast majority of really good sermons I have heard in the last 15 years have been by women. The most caring, compassionate pastors I have known in my life were women.

As a Baptist, as a Christian, no man nor woman has authority over others. Only God has authority over us and that includes all of us. Man nor woman does not have such authority.

Indeed, if we are what we say we are then everyone, every Christian is either clergy or laity. There is no real division. It is simply that each of us is as a Christian is called to our individual ministries by God. The role of the minister of a church is to prepare the other ministers of his congregation to perform their ministries in the world, in their jobs where he cannot go and to people he can never see or talk to.

only know what God has stated, prefer to hold to waht he said, not what I wished that it said!

 

[gb93433]

The vast majority of really good sermons I have heard in the last 15 years have been by women. The most caring, compassionate pastors I have known in my life were women.

That would make a lot of sense. Women tend to have t6hose gifts more. Compassion can also drive a church to die because of its inward focus on healing and not deliver the message with boldness.

If one takes a look at the prisons it is something like 75% of the men who never had a father figure growing up. A man teaches his children that when they skin their knees they can get up and get going again. The woman would focus on the hurt. Both are needed. Men teach their children to achieve. Women teach their children to relate.

A pastor in the city where I live made a comment that he believes very few youth today have had a stern warning or admonition from a man in their lives. When I take a look at those in his congregation there are men who are men and women who are women that he leads who lead others.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Where's your scriptural backup, I don't want to see some EDOP on this show scripture that supports your position that specifically says a woman can teach men or usurp authority over him.

The point is that you have to understand scripture according to the time, locale, and context in which it was written. That's what the article was getting at -- when you try to interpret headship in a paternalistic way, you are not being true to the scriptures.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Only the "God" of the contemporary church that is seeking to bring "Paul/Bible" updated into the 21 Century !

Actually, you have it backward. Instead of interpreting scripture in its NT context, people want to interpret it according to a culturally influenced paternalism.

 

[revmwc]

The point is that you have to understand scripture according to the time, locale, and context in which it was written. That's what the article was getting at -- when you try to interpret headship in a paternalistic way, you are not being true to the scriptures.

You mean that Paul writing to Timothy who was in Ephesus where they worshipped Goddesses and had Priestessess in that culture Paul says. Women are not to teach nor usurp authority over a man was counter-cultural for the Ephesians. Paul wanted to ensure they understood that women were not to teach men nor have authority over a man because God created Adam first and gave Adam dominion over the earth from the beginning. You mean like knowing that about the time, locale, customs of Ephesus and type of thing? Well I pretty much do know that it seems you failed to see my earlier post about the Ephesians or chose to ignore it not sure which. So Paul was interpreting headship by means of creation.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Paul is clear that a woman is not to teach nor usurp authority over a man and verse 13 tells us why she isn't.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Pauk doesn't say because of a paternalistic way of seeing things but because Adam was first formed then Eve.

Then he qualifies it a bit more in

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam was not decieved but Eve was deceived, because she was decieved she was in the transgression and for that she is not to teach a man. Paul makes it real clear why women are excluded from teaching men and it has nothing to do with the culture of the Ephesians and everything to do with God's order which doesn't change with time.

 

[gb93433]

Sometimes due to the body having "itching ears', not willing to submit to sound doctrines, other times , personality conflicts , other times just time to move!

That varies by fellowship/convention/denomination even among Baptist churches.

 

[nodak]

Actually, when Paul said women are not to "usurp" authority, he meant just that. It doesn't say they are not to be in authority or hold authority, but not to usurp it. They were not to forcefully wrest it from men.

His teaching re creation was refuting the teaching of that city that since, in their pagan belief, women were created first they held primacy as priestesses.

Amazing to me that we take a passage that to the first hearers would have been aimed at given men equal responsibilities in leading the church and turn it on its head so it denies those responsibilities to women.

I'll stand on just what the Bible says, not modern culture: Phoebe was whatever Stephen was, Junia was among the apostles, and women don't get to toss the men in the corner and run the show.

Of course, that latter statement doesn't mean men get to toss women in the corner and run the show either.

 

[revmwc]

Actually, when Paul said women are not to "usurp" authority, he meant just that. It doesn't say they are not to be in authority or hold authority, but not to usurp it. They were not to forcefully wrest it from men.

His teaching re creation was refuting the teaching of that city that since, in their pagan belief, women were created first they held primacy as priestesses.

Amazing to me that we take a passage that to the first hearers would have been aimed at given men equal responsibilities in leading the church and turn it on its head so it denies those responsibilities to women.

I'll stand on just what the Bible says, not modern culture: Phoebe was whatever Stephen was, Junia was among the apostles, and women don't get to toss the men in the corner and run the show.

Of course, that latter statement doesn't mean men get to toss women in the corner and run the show either.

What scripture? Nothing tells us Junia was of any authority but was noted by the Apostles, noted for what?
Phoebia was like a motherly protector and never says she taught men nor had a place of authority over men. Paul saluted them and gave them the recognition they deserved as fellow laborers and servants just like all of us are. But Paul said a women is not to teach men, that is exactly what a Pastor does. Stephen and the other 6 who were selected by the early church served tables, if a women wants to serve tables as Stephen did that's great. But the Deacon evidently later became more than that for Paul gave further qualifications that a deacon must be the husband of one wife and his wife must conduct herself a certain way.
Since you are going to stand on Scripture then evidently you believe a woman is not to pastor nor teach a man nor to snatch the authority away from a man.
If a qualified man is available he is to do the job, if he refuses she steps up. It is a sad state when men are too lazy or too scripturally ignorant to step up and teach a mens or a couples Sunday School class. As for Pastoral positions there are a lot of men who are called, qualified and trained to be pastors yet there are woman who are snatching away the authority by taking the spot and therefore violate scripture and God's order.

 

[DaChaser1]

The point is that you have to understand scripture according to the time, locale, and context in which it was written. That's what the article was getting at -- when you try to interpret headship in a paternalistic way, you are not being true to the scriptures.

have to decide IF paul was adressing Just the situation back in his times, or was meant to apply to ALL times...

Quite clear from the Biblical record that this was to be applied to the church All times, as paul listed the creditionals for pastors/Elders as MEN, and that paul rooted it into the concept/doctrine of biblical headship /subordination!

 

[DaChaser1]

Actually, you have it backward. Instead of interpreting scripture in its NT context, people want to interpret it according to a culturally influenced paternalism.

actually, intreprete scripture by scripture, so based upon that truth, Paul indeed had under inspiration from the HS directed the church to place as pastors/elders MEN qualified to be godly spiritual leaders...

Do you hold that IF Jesus had his first coming done today, would have mixed women/men as being His Apostles, and paul would instruct us to have both ordained as Pastors?

 

[gb93433]

have to decide IF paul was adressing Just the situation back in his times, or was meant to apply to ALL times...

Quite clear from the Biblical record that this was to be applied to the church All times, as paul listed the creditionals for pastors/Elders as MEN, and that paul rooted it into the concept/doctrine of biblical headship /subordination!

When one takes a look around the world from an anthropological point of view it is an easy question to answer. When I was in seminary the professor asked if there was an reason why a woman could not be a pastor. I was amazed at how silent the room was. Finally after some discussion I brought up the reasons from the viewpoint of what is actually happening around the world outside of the church. The professor said that he had never heard that before and he was rather stumped.

I think so often that if we think outside of the box and ask God then He will give us answers outside of the typical box full of thoughts. There cannot be 2 sides to the correct interpretation and application of a text.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Do you hold that IF Jesus had his first coming done today, would have mixed women/men as being His Apostles, and paul would instruct us to have both ordained as Pastors?

Yes, I believe he would include women as disciples if he were now on earth for the first time. There is scripture to support the belief that there was a woman apostle, Junia.

Romans 16:7 (New International Version)

7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among[a] the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Romans 16:7

Common English Bible (CEB)
7 Say hello to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners. They are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

Romans 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Note: King James and several others say "of note among the apostles." Unfortunately in English this can be interpreted as supporting that she was an apostle, or that she was well known to the apostles. Both interpretations can be argued. Other translations make it clear that Junia was a woman. In all the Greek and Latin manuscripts that we have from that era, Juinia is always speaking about or of a woman.

You can reject this only be taking a liberal interpretation as all the evidence from the manuscripts is Junia was a woman. I know this is a very hard pill for many men to swallow.

THE APOSTLE JUNIA

In Romans 16:7, Paul praises a woman named Junia as "outstanding among the apostles." Despite the modern mistranslation of her name as masculine "Junias" or "Junius," no commentator prior to the 13th century questioned that this apostle was a woman.1 For example, John Chrysostom, whose writings often express misogyny, wrote of Romans 16:7, "O how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!"2 This unanimity of testimony over a milennium is particularly striking since it remained during a long period of eroding toleration of women's ministries in the medieval church. The reason for the witness is simple: all the ancient Greek and Latin manuscripts commending the oustanding apostles in Romans 16:7 read either "Junia" or "Julia", both feminine forms.

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/rissjunia.htm

 

[revmwc]

When one takes a look around the world from an anthropological point of view it is an easy question to answer. When I was in seminary the professor asked if there was an reason why a woman could not be a pastor. I was amazed at how silent the room was. Finally after some discussion I brought up the reasons from the viewpoint of what is actually happening around the world outside of the church. The professor said that he had never heard that before and he was rather stumped.

I think so often that if we think outside of the box and ask God then He will give us answers outside of the typical box full of thoughts. There cannot be 2 sides to the correct interpretation and application of a text.

There can be only one interpretation and the Holy Spirits view is that interpretation and man's world view is not. The thing is what is written was inspired by the Holy Spirit and the Greek from the Textus Receptus bears out what Paul said a women is not to teach men nor usurp snatch away the authority form a man.
Scripture and the Greek interlinnear are to me the only interpretation because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. We aren't told in scripture we can interpret it as society changes, if that were the case then we could say that since society sees good people as going to heaven then one can be good and get to heaven. But scripture is clear Belief, for by Grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves (i.e. not being good) it (Salvation) is the Gift of God not of works lest anyone whould boast. Eph. 2:8 &9.

Because of our society some believe we can change the standards the bible sets, but they are God's standards and God is immutable. His order was Adam was first created then Eve, and because of that women are not to teach men nor usurp authority over men.

 

[DaChaser1]

When one takes a look around the world from an anthropological point of view it is an easy question to answer. When I was in seminary the professor asked if there was an reason why a woman could not be a pastor. I was amazed at how silent the room was. Finally after some discussion I brought up the reasons from the viewpoint of what is actually happening around the world outside of the church. The professor said that he had never heard that before and he was rather stumped.

I think so often that if we think outside of the box and ask God then He will give us answers outside of the typical box full of thoughts. There cannot be 2 sides to the correct interpretation and application of a text.

maybe the answer would be because god does not allow/permit for that to happen?

maybe best answer NOT to poll us humans, but to go by what God said in his word?

 

[gb93433]

There can be only one interpretation and the Holy Spirits view is that interpretation and man's world view is not. The thing is what is written was inspired by the Holy Spirit and the Greek from the Textus Receptus bears out what Paul said a women is not to teach men nor usurp snatch away the authority form a man.
Scripture and the Greek interlinnear are to me the only interpretation because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. We aren't told in scripture we can interpret it as society changes, if that were the case then we could say that since society sees good people as going to heaven then one can be good and get to heaven. But scripture is clear Belief, for by Grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves (i.e. not being good) it (Salvation) is the Gift of God not of works lest anyone whould boast. Eph. 2:8 &9.

Because of our society some believe we can change the standards the bible sets, but they are God's standards and God is immutable. His order was Adam was first created then Eve, and because of that women are not to teach men nor usurp authority over men.

What I think may or may not be the correct interpretation. Certainly there are accepted rules of interpretation. Sometimes we end up having to say that we do not know and leave it at that. The correct interpretation would not have two interpretations that would both be correct unless it is a case of sensus plenior. For example, you cannot have female and also have female deacons, and have both of those points satisfy the correct interpretation.

 

[gb93433]

maybe best answer NOT to poll us humans, but to go by what God said in his word?

That is my point. However God has given gifts to the body and some are better able to teach than others.

I have lived long enough to see the liars who try to maintain their political position out of fear of what might happen and also those who want the truth as first place in their life. I greatly respect someone who seeks the truth and once he finds it will admit he was wrong and let his ways conform to the truth rather than ignore the truth to maintain a political position. Not one of have the handle on truth. I would like to think that everyone is looking to have a handle on the truth. But I know from experience and from what scripture teaches that there are those who do not care about the truth.

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes, I believe he would include women as disciples if he were now on earth for the first time. There is scripture to support the belief that there was a woman apostle, Junia.






Note: King James and several others say "of note among the apostles." Unfortunately in English this can be interpreted as supporting that she was an apostle, or that she was well known to the apostles. Both interpretations can be argued. Other translations make it clear that Junia was a woman. In all the Greek and Latin manuscripts that we have from that era, Juinia is always speaking about or of a woman.

You can reject this only be taking a liberal interpretation as all the evidence from the manuscripts is Junia was a woman. I know this is a very hard pill for many men to swallow.

well...

per the bible, churches allowed to have women as deaconess, as per Phoebe...

lady that mentioned was named among the Apsotles, but was NOT among them in sense of being actual Apostle!

 

[revmwc]

What I think may or may not be the correct interpretation. Certainly there are accepted rules of interpretation. Sometimes we end up having to say that we do not know and leave it at that. The correct interpretation would not have two interpretations that would both be correct unless it is a case of sensus plenior. For example, you cannot have female and also have female deacons, and have both of those points satisfy the correct interpretation.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

The Apostle John says try the spirit, try the teacher try the interpretation whether they are from God. For their are flase prophets in the world. False interpretations made to fit man's desires not Gods.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Holy spirit helps us compare spiritual with spirtual so that we don't operate on man's wisdom but on Gods.

What is God's order? Man was created first! What did Paul say was one of the reasons women were forbidden from teaching men?

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Verse 13 Adam was formed first, Paul says given that fact a woman is not to teach a man, nor to usurp or snatch authority away from him. Not because we have a patrnal phylosophy was a women forbidden to teach man but because God created Adam (man) first and what di God do for man?


Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God gave man dominion over all the earth who was formed first Adam (man) and man was given dominion over all the earth.

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Verse 22 God made He woman from the rib of Adam. God had first told Adam Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That he was not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, this was God's command this was scripture. Adam was responsible to keep that command, then when Eve was created he taught it to her amzing how Adam formed first was the spiritual teacher of the woman (Eve) formed out of him.

God's order of that has never changed. Paul makes that clear there in 1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve

Seems when we compare spiritual scripture with spirtual scripture we find Paul reiterating God's plan and order forthe earth.
So here is what scripture shows and says:
1. Adam was created first, Gen, 1 Tim
2. Adam given dominion over all the earth and everything on it. Gen 1 & 2
3. Eve was created.
4. Eve was taught God's command by Adam not Eve teaching it to Adam.
5. Eve is tempted by Satan and takes of the fruit.
6. She then gives it to Adam and they eat of it.

God's paln was for man to teach the Scripture from the start.
Adam taught Eve and they fell into disobedience.
God gave man the dominion and the responsibility of Spiritual authority to teach his family and all the word. Women have their place as help meet helping to teach the children and other women but are not to teach men, that is out of God's order.