Well I see they throw acusations around and yet no scripture to back up their point. We have posted scripture that says a women is not to teach no snatch authority from a man, which with them she wouldn't do because they go against God's order of man created first and give up the authority He wants men to take. Yet they have still not posted any verse where it is said women can teach and snatch the authority away from a man. Nor where the verse says wife of one husband or that Eve was created first then cam Adam. Oh well God said some will fall away from the turth in the end and go to fables and want their ears tickled and that is exactly what it seems they want.
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What is the role of women in the Church?
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Well I see they throw acusations around and yet no scripture to back up their point. We have posted scripture that says a women is not to teach no snatch authority from a man, which with them she wouldn't do because they go against God's order of man created first and give up the authority He wants men to take. Yet they have still not posted any verse where it is said women can teach and snatch the authority away from a man. Nor where the verse says wife of one husband or that Eve was created first then cam Adam. Oh well God said some will fall away from the turth in the end and go to fables and want their ears tickled and that is exactly what it seems they want.
Silliness meaning a belief that is different from yours in that there must be explicit Scriptural permission given.
...A reference for which you guys have repeatedly refused to supply, but resort to accusations and insults (some of you) when requested in good faith.
Those of you failing in your attempts to explain away Phoebe being a church's deacon via your 'word studies', etc:
Take a gander at Romans 16:2 where she is called prostatis, lit. "a woman set over others".
The conservative ESV translates this with the English word patron; not patroness, mind you, but patron.
According to the Online Etymological Dictionary, the word patron derived from Latin pater "father" and in English signifies "a lord-master, a protector".
Take a gander at Romans 16:2 where she is called prostatis, lit. "a woman set over others".
The conservative ESV translates this with the English word patron; not patroness, mind you, but patron.
According to the Online Etymological Dictionary, the word patron derived from Latin pater "father" and in English signifies "a lord-master, a protector".
The Australian press reports a pastor there is currently being publicly criticized, her opponents are saying/citing:
—questioning whether she is a Christian
—calling her "a disgrace"
—women are not to speak in church, I Cor. 14:34-35
—might as well just shave her head I Cor. 11:5-6
—be in submission I Tim. 2:11-12
Wonder if you approve of their campaign?
—questioning whether she is a Christian
—calling her "a disgrace"
—women are not to speak in church, I Cor. 14:34-35
—might as well just shave her head I Cor. 11:5-6
—be in submission I Tim. 2:11-12
Wonder if you approve of their campaign?
I have never said that a woman cannot be set over another woman in fact God's word is clear the elder women are to teach, the younger women, that can be a great ministry for them 1 Timothy 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity
The elder is to have a place of position in the widows under these qualification.
1 Timothy 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Phoebe may very well have been numbered amoung the widows in a place of servanthood over the younger women. But Paul made it clear she nor any woman is not to be in a place of authority over a man. As for Junia she could very well have been serving along side her husband Andronicus, the one place Paul says to salute Andoronicus and Junia in Romans 16 Verse 3 says "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:" Paul salutes this couple in the same way. Yet Junia being greeted by Paul and states this about Andronicus and Junia "...who are of note among the apostles..." in Romans 16:7, they are of note not that they are Apostles that reading into the statement, Andronicus was not an Apostle yet you want to say Junia is. The word for note in the greek is "Episemos" which means:
having a mark on it, marked, stamped, coined
marked
in a good sense
of note, illustrious
in a bad sense
notorious, infamous
They were marked by the Apostles for their service. We have nothing in the bible that gives us any further information on Junia and Andronicus, they could have very easily been a married couple as were Priscilla and Aquila, Paul even placed Priscilla names ahead of Aquila's and they even called Apollos aside outside the service to talk with hijm about spiritual things.
The Widows are to have special place under certain circumstances and Women are the back bone of the Church in Prayer, training the children and the elder teaching the younger women. The only two thing God's word says women are not to be is Pastors (teachers) of men nor to have a place of authority over men, and a Deacon is to be the Husband of one wife, which a woman can't be, although many are trying today.
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Since there is no link or information about the participants or circumstances , only your version of what is being said, there would be no point in commenting.
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No, I am wondering how she was placed in the position to start with. Did they vote her in our was she appointed by a church hierarchy? She may very well be a Christian she is just in violation of scripture in teaching men, pastoring men. To the Australians they see scripture for scripture, a woman is not to teach nor be in authority over a man. Someone put this lady in a hornets next that God never intended her to be in as a women, for He created man first and men are to be in authority over the church as the Leader and Teacher.
"the Australians they see scripture for scripture"?
Really???
Here are "the Australians who see scripture for scripture" attacking this conservative pastor (CAUTION video is quite vile):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4zm-Zo65ok
You may skip to 3:50 to where they start hurling your pet "versuses" against her.
Jan. 24, 2012, Pastor Margaret Court Subject of Hate Campaign
Mar. 6, 2012, Pastor Margaret Court Lampooned in Music Video
Here is the interlinear Greek to English Translation of verses 1 & 2,
Interlinear Greek to English
1. I-AM-TOGETHER-STANDING YET to-YOU PHOEBE THE sister OF-US BEING THRU-SERVitor OF-THE OUT-CALLED OF THE IN CENCHREA.
I-am-commending to-ye PHOEBE the sister of us being servant of the ecclesia the in Cenchrea
Notice it says of Phoebe is a THRU-SERVitor or Servant. Of the CALLED OUT that is the Church.
2.THAT her YE-SHOULD-BE-TOWARD-RECEIVING IN Master WORTHly OF-THE HOLY-ones AND MAY-BE-BESIDE-STANDING to-her IN WHICH EVER OF-YOU she-MAY-BE-needING to-PRACTISE AND for she BEFORE-STAND OF-MANY WAS-BECOME AND OF-SAME OF-ME
THAT HER ye-should-be-receivng IN Lord WORTHly OF-THE saints AND may-be-standing-by her IN WHICH EVER ye she-MAY-BE-needING matter also for she patroness OF-MANY was-become AND myself OF-ME
Notice it does place the word as Patroness, that she BEFORE-STAND OF-MANY she stood before many as a Patroness.
The greek word is "Prostatis" for which you seem to be looking at this means:
a woman set over others
a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources
Notice she aided them with her resources no where is it saying she was a teacher of them, nor that she was anything more than a protectress. This is a little like Rahab and her hiding the spies in Jericho, she was a protectress of them. She was like a Mother to them. Like Here:
1 Timothy 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity
Like this:
1 Timothy 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
She was a motherly figure who cared for the needs as a protectress over others.
Youtube description under the video:
Proud Margaret / Margaret Court Parody (BY TV LIVE ON STAGE) By tvliveonstage 8,582 views Dedicated to Australians of all genders, sexualities, faiths and races who value love and equality.
CONTAINS MILD COARSE LANGUAGE AND ADULT HUMOUR.
CONCEPT, LYRICS & VISUAL - COPYRIGHT 2012 TV LIVE ON STAGE.
So, the Australians you refer to who see Scripture for Scripture would be what appears to be a liberal/secular (based on appearance) television show?
I ask again since you seem to know all about this how did she get the job in the first place? Or is she now teaching things contrary to scripturem, well that's a given since she is a Pastor of men. Or are these from other churches protesting hers? What is the situation? Some Aussies evidently know the scripture for that but forget about the live in peace with all men one and just seperate themselves.
No, rather its pointless to try to change the minds of those here like me who see the Bible as being infallible as regards to all things it teaches us, and we are STILL looking for ANY biblcal verse supporting God allowing women to be pastors/elders in a local assembly!
It sure is a good thing that God does not wait for perfect people who have perfect theology before he uses them. There are those who know they are perfect and are just waiting for others to acknowledge them. Somehow they are unable to figure out why they are waiting so long.
God uses folks who stay in His proper order being led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would not lead someone to violate His Word, therefore she was not called by the Holy Spirit to pastor men, she may have been called to a ministry to teach women but chose to violate scripture and usurp authority over men and teach them.
Notice the names fly when that is all that is left for them?
Former church attended, the pastor was a female, and she always said that she felt that God had in mind a man to be the pastor, but she was "forced" to become it instead!
My take on it still did not make it biblically right!
He didn't offer them up as an example. You did.
Is the converse true? Name person in scripture whom God used who did that 100% of the time except Jesus.
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"Get the job"? I doubt Margaret Court sees the ministry as a "job":
http://www.victorylifecentre.com.au/blog/?p=76
What's she preaching?
She's preaching traditional values, marriage being between a man and a woman.
You consider that "contrary to scripturem"?
No, I think Arbo is correct in fingering them as secular bigots, a pro-g@y-marriage group, just employing your same pet "versuses" and arguments to try to shut her up!
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