No, I posted the exact wording of Acts 12 and said it was a beautiful picture of our salvation. An allegory exhibits a hidden meaning. I did not say there was a hidden meaning. I said it paints a beautiful picture of our deliverance.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What is Total Depravity, part deux?
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
- Start date
- Status
And how is that accomplished? By the giving of a new heart of faith?
Friend, i do not want to be a bad witness for my Lord Jesus on the internet super highway, so i will have to say, this discussion for me is over. We see things differently. God gave you the ability to believe, Praise God. Me too! He is worthy of all our praise. That is the bottom line.
Once again you try to imply I believe something I don't believe.
"Believe" when used in a soteriological sense, means to place faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.
It is not a mere intellectual agreement but rather a conviction of the heart that Christ died on the cross for my sins, was buried, and rose again, according to the Scriptures.
Those who think "believe" when used soteriologically means only intellectual assent are likely to miss heaven by 18 inches. The distance from the head to the heart.
Once again you try to imply I believe something I don't believe.
"Believe" when used in a soteriological sense, means to place faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.
It is not a mere intellectual agreement but rather a conviction of the heart that Christ died on the cross for my sins, was buried, and rose again, according to the Scriptures.
Those who think "believe" when used soteriologically means only intellectual assent are likely to miss heaven by 18 inches. The distance from the head to the heart.
Romans 10:9
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
I'm not talking about intellectual assent.
So you agree with my definition? If so why insinuate I believe something different or of lesser value?
Also, you are aware of what Paul was saying in Romans 10:9? He was addressing the Jews who had fled Jerusalem and settled in Rome. He told them they were lacking in one area. They believed in God the Father. They even believed in God the Holy Spirit. But they denied that Jesus was the LORD of the Old Testament.
He told them that to complete their faith they would have to believe (not head knowledge, but a heart felt faith) that Jesus was LORD.
Your definition was: believe means to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior. What does "believe" mean?
Or, What does "Faith" mean since you used Faith/believe synonymously
Ah, here you said...
Have a good day, my friend.
Last edited:
Look at your own definition.
"Believe," in this context, is a verb. "Faith," in this context, is a noun.
And do you disagree with that?
Ok, now I'm even more confused in the context of your questions, but I'll live with it.
"perfectly holy" is not in the bible. I checked lots of translations. It is in the Aramaic Bible in Plain English, but it disagrees with your definition. There are many definitions of holy by people who call themselves Christian. The OP was about the importance of definitions, so I wanted to make sure that I was answering your original three questions in the right way.
But yes, you did not call them heresies and I apologize for the confusion. That was my mistake.
1. What is your definition of holy?
2. And how is perfectly holy different from holy?
Hopefully, you don't consider these two questions to be trolling. You must be talking about some other questions. I'm not sure what they are. I don't think it matters.
I'm pretty sure these insults are for me. I apologize for not having the depth of wisdom, intelligence, and knowledge with which God has blessed you.
Marty
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
But faith comes from hearing the word of God, not natural revelation.
Well, this thread, as with the previous one, shows who holds to total depravity and who does not.
Those who hold to it understand it is God who must first quicken the dead(nekros) sinner. That he was a spiritual corpse, rotten to the core.
Those who oppose it see man is not dead in sin, but has gout in their big toe, which makes them limp. They have a little island of righteousness that was unaffected by the fall. On that little island, they can make a free will decision to be saved...or not. The onus of their salvation is not on the cross of the Christ, but on the exercising of their free will...or not.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.[John 5:21]
Wait, the lost ain’t really spiritually dead, so the Christ can’t give life to those who already have life. He was surely misquoted by John.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,[Ephesians 2:1] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,[Ephesians 2:5,6] Wait, we weren’t dead so He couldn’t make us alive, neither could He raise us up with Him. Paul, don’t you know you can’t resurrect those who are alive?
Those who hold to it understand it is God who must first quicken the dead(nekros) sinner. That he was a spiritual corpse, rotten to the core.
Those who oppose it see man is not dead in sin, but has gout in their big toe, which makes them limp. They have a little island of righteousness that was unaffected by the fall. On that little island, they can make a free will decision to be saved...or not. The onus of their salvation is not on the cross of the Christ, but on the exercising of their free will...or not.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.[John 5:21]
Wait, the lost ain’t really spiritually dead, so the Christ can’t give life to those who already have life. He was surely misquoted by John.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,[Ephesians 2:1] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,[Ephesians 2:5,6] Wait, we weren’t dead so He couldn’t make us alive, neither could He raise us up with Him. Paul, don’t you know you can’t resurrect those who are alive?
Once again, Marty, you are not only wrong, you missed the point.
I agree with this. However, that chapter is not a treaty to be saved by what ppl see via natural revelation.
You stopped at this verse because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.[Romans 1:19] However, go on from there For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:20-23] They took what they saw and attributed it to idols. That’s what ‘form of corruptible man and of birds and of four-footed animals and crawling creatures’ mean. They attributed what is God as some idol.
Rockson
Active Member
Yeah sure. A non-Christian sinner goes robs banks every day, beats their wive and kids, commit homicides and enjoys kicking his dog. I just finished talking to a Calvinist on another place and he told me total depravity doesn't mean you're a bad as you could be but here you claim sinners are rotten to the core.
Non-Calvinists believe the unsaved are dead in sin. Get over it!
Free will is not an island of righteousness. If it was the choices one made from it would never be evil . It's not righteous or unrighteous. It's merely free will.
God wants and insists upon a genuine love relationship with those who are saved. He wants to know do people genuinely want to love him if so they must exercise free will choice.
Non-Calvinists believe before Christ they were spiritually dead which means their spirits were out of fellowship with God. Your mockery in claiming we don't believe in spiritual death is merely your own short sighted opinion. Please consider that to be the case.
Rockson
Active Member
I'd kindly suggest you failed to bolden the most important part.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:20-23]
In other words because God had shown and revealed what he has done through creation that alone should have rightly moved them to seek God and call upon him. If there was absolutely no way they could do this then how is it you can claim they wouldn't have an excuse?
We're talking about God putting things forth and expecting and holding accountable to ones to respond to that very thing. If God created a painting and told people they need to tell what they see if they were totally blind and not able to perceive according to your books they're without excuse? They should be able to perceive?
For the very reason God said they were without excuse has to mean they could have responded in a positive way to God at least in seeking him or calling upon him. You would have it though that they're locked in they can't move or choose anything different! So why would God say they're without excuse? The fact is you and other Calvinists would NEVER EVER do this if it were any other subject but when you get into religion you allow your minds to twist in ways which are why defy reasonable thought.
This entire post is a strawman
Yes it is.
Quite creative metaphors though. I did like the part about partial depravity adherents with infected toes stumbling about their Eden-like deserted islands until they decide to save themselves.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Rockson
Active Member
Well maybe that's just it. Calvinists are good at writing fiction. Non-Calvinists maybe not so much.
The sinner cannot regenerate Himself though in order to be able to believe, correct?We see things differently
That's about as far as it can go.
When a person Believes God at His Word Concerning the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, He is regenerated. After regeneration, THEN can a person understand the realities of the Kingdom of Heaven.
- Status