What Is Total Depravity?

[JonShaff]

But you never really addressed my statement that faith then comes from God.


'God would justify the Gentiles by faith...'[Galatians 3:8]


'God justifies the ungodly...'[Romans 4:5]


And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[Romans 8:28-30]


Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;[Romans 8:33]

In these verses, we can clearly see that it is God who justifies. Now, to be justified, means to be declared righteous before God. They do not stand before Him 'not guilty', but innocent, as if they had never committed a sin in their lives. That's why I aver faith is a gift of God. As the 'golden chain of redemption' states, those who God foreknew, He predestined, called, JUSTIFIED, and glorified. He did it all. We did squat. We did not give Him even one scintilla of faith, seeing we had none to give Him.

Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23

 

[utilyan]

When I sin its my fault, not, when I sin its TOTAL DEPRAVITY's (God's) fault.

excuses excuses excuses.



In genesis, We are given a list of penalties at fall man:

Genesis 3

17To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”



Yet the most DAMNING penalty of all is not mentioned.
The loss of being able to choose to do anything that is good for them and their decedents.


Jeremiah 19

4“Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent 5and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

Never crossed his mind!? God is surprised that after he took away man's ability to do anything good, that man can't do anything good.


The flaw here comes from false humility taken to the extreme. In the process of giving God credit the only way to make God great was to trash everything else. FALSE HUMILITY believes that the greatness of God depends on the flaw of man.

I could argue you can't tie your own shoe without God. That doesn't mean all mankind does not know how to tie their shoes.

 

[Revmitchell]

The gospel, in and of itself, does not save.

Romans 1:16 Romans 10:17 says otherwise

Again, you are making the scriptures say that which you want it to say, and not what it is actually saying.

The lost person can not understand the things of the Spirit because 1) he considers them foolishness and 2) they are Spiritually discerned. I don't know how much clear Paul could have been.

Your mistake is believing that I Cor 2 is about the regenerate vs. unregenerate. The truth is it is about worldly wisdom vs. God's wisdom. We see this beginning in vs.4-5. Paul is talking about being careful not to try to use persuasive wisdom that he could drum up from within himself but he relied fully on the Spirit of God. It is a comparison of those who rely on worldly wisdom vs. those who rely on divine revelation. Even Christians can make this mistake.

You read into this passage that which is not there.

 

[utilyan]

But who brings ppl to saving faith? Themselves or God? Please answer this before you leave.

Who put your pants on today? You or God?

Without God, Without Jesus the Sustainer of ALL THINGS, There is NO PANTS.

Every single phenomenon and aspect of existence is sustained by God.

Even within the mechanics of Calvinism, if a PERSON CHOOSES not to hear the gospel, 100% chance they are reprobates.

But if they DO CHOOSE to hear the gospel, their choice has brought them to the possibility of saving faith.

I'm surprised Calvinist have not tied up everyone in the world and just force them to hear the gospel.

The Wisest Calvinist in the world, he doesn't debate us, he ACTUALLY believes there is nothing HE or anyone else can do, so instead he PRAYS to GOD for the election of other people.

 

[tyndale1946]

I think that may very well be the case. I have seen so many "closet calvinists" who had taught and preached against "calvinists" and "calvinism" for years, even called "calvinists" some pretty terrible names, but one day the light went on and they were finally led into all truth, but were afraid of what their friends, family, and pastor friends would think so they never mention it and never teach or preach about it.

I hear you TC some do not want to admit they were that bad, entirely Total Depraved... If we were not why nail Jesus the sinless Son Of God to a cross to save us?... Someone please explain that to me?... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

Then you believe in total depravity. For that is all it means.

1 down and 4 to go.

So Jon is now a one point Calvinist?... Brother Glen

 

[The Archangel]

I respectfully disagree with you. On many points. The Spirit reveals to your cold dead heart that you are a sinner in Judgment. Were you born again when you first were shown that in your heart/conscience? No, you were not. You most likely rejected it, just like I did. That didn't mean you weren't shown spiritual truths by the Word and His Spirit.

You can disagree all you want. But, your response does not deal with your contradiction or how the text of Romans 1 contradicts you.

The Archangel

 

[Rockson]

The Gospel call is universal. Everyone who hears it responds. Some respond positively and some respond negatively, but all responds. But the bible is clear that a positive response is due to God's Grace and not due to man's self-righteousness.

Sorry Cassidy but this sounds and seems so much like what a politician would say....appear like they've given you something of value but turning around and taking it all away. You put out that people can respond, kind of like oh well isn't that wonderful.... but what value is responding if there's REALLY no choice. That's not responding in any sense of freedom that the word should give it.

 

[TCassidy]

but what value is responding if there's REALLY no choice.

Duh! How you respond IS the CHOICE you make.

 

[Rockson]

Duh! How you respond IS the CHOICE you make.

Oh brother.

If you're saying one party can't choose the good then really there is NO CHOICE!

Analogy....if ALL are told to take a bus ticket and ALL do and the bus driver upon boarding collect the tickets and says to many your ticket won't work...disqualified ....then there was REALLY no choice! Your insistence on wanting to claim that all men do have choice is merely your attempt to smooth over the offensive things of Calvinism. Cassidy you must come to understand...people want true and real options if you're going to say a choice not fake ones.

 

[1689Dave]

Many think if you can bend down and pick up a penny, you can accept Christ. He is available on the same terms. But Total Depravity renders us incapable of discerning the true Christ or understanding the true gospel. So we turn the gospel into law and promise any who fulfill the conditions, God will save them.

But the gospel is never offered, only preached. And it simply announces "whosoever believes has eternal life." Based on Jesus' death for our sins, his burial and resurrection. And then we tell believers to repent and be baptized. Followed by living a holy life. Those who truly believe will follow through.

This weeds out the true believers from the rest. And keeps the focus of faith on Christ.

But even in the case where we hear a legalistic gospel, we must already believe or we wouldn't decide to believe. Or decide to accept Christ. But this type of gospel focuses our faith on us instead of Christ. Trusting that our decision met the condition and now God is obligated to save us.

In Revelation John says; “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” (Revelation 22:17)

One must already believe (have eternal life) before one would even think of following through to receive the gift.

 

[InTheLight]

we must already believe or we wouldn't decide to believe.

One must already believe (have eternal life) before one would even think of following through to receive the gift.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:13

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
John 20:31

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 1:16

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[1689Dave]

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:13

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
John 20:31

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 1:16

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

 

[utilyan]

Many think if you can bend down and pick up a penny, you can accept Christ. He is available on the same terms. But Total Depravity renders us incapable of discerning the true Christ or understanding the true gospel. So we turn the gospel into law and promise any who fulfill the conditions, God will save them.

But the gospel is never offered, only preached. And it simply announces "whosoever believes has eternal life." Based on Jesus' death for our sins, his burial and resurrection. And then we tell believers to repent and be baptized. Followed by living a holy life. Those who truly believe will follow through.

This weeds out the true believers from the rest. And keeps the focus of faith on Christ.

But even in the case where we hear a legalistic gospel, we must already believe or we wouldn't decide to believe. Or decide to accept Christ. But this type of gospel focuses our faith on us instead of Christ. Trusting that our decision met the condition and now God is obligated to save us.

In Revelation John says; “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” (Revelation 22:17)

One must already believe (have eternal life) before one would even think of following through to receive the gift.

Gnostic --
1.relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.

All are inherently evil.

All are incapable of discerning the true Christ or understanding the true gospel.

Unless you have been elected to achieve enlightenment to the secret knowledge of the gospel

 

[InTheLight]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Galatians is written to Christians.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[Rockson]

Many think if you can bend down and pick up a penny, you can accept Christ. He is available on the same terms.

Well it seemed a pretty simple process with the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:27. He was reading a portion of Isaiah and had a conversation with Phillip and right away was baptized.

But Total Depravity renders us incapable of discerning the true Christ or understanding the true gospel.

Jesus seemed to imply that it's pretty straightforward that even a child can understand. Would all these children have to be regenerated?

“Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it” Mk 10:13-16

Seems pretty simple to me.

"I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3).

In Revelation John says; “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” (Revelation 22:17)

Well a great Bible verse above and thank God for it. OK he's talking to someone who hasn't come yet for he says "let him take of the water of life freely" The water of life IS eternal life. He hasn't come and taken it as yet so how can you say what you've said below?

One must already believe (have eternal life) before one would even think of following through to receive the gift.

So you're saying one must already have eternal life before he can come to receive the gift of eternal life??????? Really I can't understand what you're saying.

 

[MartyF]

Is your body perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

What is your definition of holy? And how is perfectly holy different from holy?

Is your soul perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

I have no evidence that it existed before the fall.

Is your spirit perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

Once again I have no evidence it existed at the time of "the fall".

Once again, I'm having problems answering your questions because I am unsure what you mean by holy and especially this new term "perfectly holy" which seems redundant but I may have a different definitions of holy.

Holy for me is what god is or what has been described as something set aside for God. Holy seems to be used in many contexts in the Bible. Strangely enough, I don't see it used in Genesis except when calling the seventh day "holy".

As far as being holy, the first chapter of Corinthians call those united with Christ as holy. So, I'm united with Christ and therefore holy. 1 Thessalonians 5 split it up into 3 parts like you did. So I'm pretty sure I'd say yes my body, soul, and spirit are holy. But I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I'd like to answer your questions, but they make no sense.

 

[TCassidy]

What is your definition of holy? And how is perfectly holy different from holy?

Refused to answer but instead dodged the question.

I have no evidence that it existed before the fall.

Refused to answer but instead dodged the question.

Once again I have no evidence it existed at the time of "the fall".

Refused to answer but instead dodged the question.

I'd like to answer your questions, but they make no sense.

I can understand why you refuse to honestly answer the questions. If you did you would have to admit that total depravity is simply the ruin of the total person by the fall and has nothing at all to do with making choices.

 

[utilyan]

Yes.

If you deny Total Depravity, which means the total man, body, soul, and spirit, then you deny all three parts of man are fallen and unholy. So your denial begs the question, which part of you is perfect and can approach God on the merit of your own holiness?

So, allow me to ask you:

Is your body perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

Is your soul perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

Is your spirit perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

Now please, no ducking and dodging. Each question can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."

Yes Its holy and perfect. Don't you know your body is a temple to the holy spirit?
Yes Its holy and perfect. The very image of God.
Yes It is holy and perfect. 33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.

Wonderfully made:

Psalm 139

13For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.

14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.

15My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;

16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.


My body soul and spirit is PERFECT.


>>>>>>>>>>>>When I sin it is MY FAULT.<<<<<<<<<<<<

Not a defective body, Not cracked soul, Not an evil spirit.

In other words it is not GOD's fault. It is not a GOD set condition by which I SIN.

It is absolutely MY FAULT.

You guys keep giving excuses. Blaming God. Time to take responsibility.

Luke 23
41“And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”


Nothing about his body spirit and soul being part of the problem. Nothing about him not being granted gnostic understanding. He knows what he did was wrong.

 

[MartyF]

Many think if you can bend down and pick up a penny, you can accept Christ.

I think of it as a talking penny jumping up and down while asking to be picked up. Of course, pennies can't buy anything and no one wants to be called the insane person and admit the penny is talking to him or her. So, the penny is ignored. Others step on the penny to prove and demonstrate that it is only a penny and not a talking penny.

I think that God is actively trying to have a relationship with his creation as Jesus describes after his diatribe against the Pharisees in Matthew 23. "How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me."

I think it is common for people to think that the reason people don't follow God is because they do not recognize who he is. Early in my life, I forced myself to deal with hundreds of people from varying backgrounds. From my perspective, there are those who know who God is and choose not to be with him.

Marty