What is Your View of The Atonement By Jesus Christ?

[TCassidy]

Psalm 7:11.

Psalm 7:11 "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."

How does that support your thesis

The wrath of God is directed upon sin and sinners, due to him being by very nature holy, correct?

Ask Jonathen Edwards on this topic!

He's dead. He can't hear my question and he can't answer.

 

[TCassidy]

Then this "action" of ones "repentance" is the result of God enabling the sinner, and not of themselves! This, my friend is the SAME as God doing the repenting for you, as you have no say in it! It is that simple!

No, it is not! My grandson was hungry. I gave him $20 to take himself and his two brothers to Chick-fil-a. I enabled him to go. But it was him who did the going, selecting from the menu, and eating his lunch. Not me. I never left the house.

Look, we know you are desperate, especially in view of your dishonest tactics, to try to defend your indefensible theory, but the best thing to do is just fess up and admit you deliberately twisted what I said to try to keep from looking incompetent to other readers of the forum.

One of the very first indications that a person is in way over their head is when they try to obfuscate the issue by saying the other side said something they never said, or that they believe something they don't believe. Once you have to start resorting to dishonesty you have already lost the debate. Time to admit defeat, pack up and go home.

Unless, of course, you are interested in learning what the rest of us believe, and are willing to engage in meaningful discussion as brothers in Christ. If so, stick around. We may not convince you that our understanding is correct, but at least you might learn what we actually believe instead of the falsehood you keep saying we believe.

There is an old saying, "Truth will out."

And another, although from Buddha, is still relevant: “Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” (Paraphrased from the Pali Text Society’s Gradual Sayings, Volume I, Section: “The Book of the Threes” ed. by R. Morris, London: Pali Text Society 1885, second edition, revised by A.K. Warder, 1961.)

 

[agedman]

Repentance is a pre-requirement for salvation which comes from the heart of the sinner, when responding to the convicting of the Holy Spirit of their sins and need for Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

So, you would probably hold that if one is not thoroughly repentant there is no salvation granted?

What if one remembered something years later they neglected to repent, some thorn in the side temptation that would over take them in a fault? Were such granted salvation years before?

Is there a point that repentance becomes a merry-go-round and salvation is a yo-yo?

This "faith" is part of the Holy Spirit's convicting work in the heart of the sinner. I see no Scripture that says anyone is "granted" repentance first, and then they accept Jesus as their Saviour, and are "born-again". Both are exactly the same thing as Titus 3:5 teaches

Titus 3:5:

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Now, I see a problem in your presenting Titus 3 as supporting your thinking.

Unless you can show that human repentance is an act of righteousness, then it remains a work that FOLLOWS belief, not precedes it.

See, above that "the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" placed BEFORE being "made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." NOT after.

Perhaps, you missed this, but basic personality studies show that one does not truly repent (turn from their wicked ways) without there FIRST being changed in the very core of their belief system. I don't stop an addiction unless there is a change that compels me to stop an addiction. This is shown in such things as Cognitive Behavior Theory. (brief description found here: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy | Psychology Today)

This is remarked by the Apostle in 2 Timothy that such repentance comes from God:

24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.​

That such repentance is first brought on by God in the form of sorrow (2 Corinthians 7)

9I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. 10For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.​

The point being that repentance follows a core change which allows the Godly sorrow producing repentance.

Belief is before Godly sorrow, not following it.

One believes and is extremely sorrowful and repentant.
One does not become extremely sorrowful and repentant without first having an internal change.

Or such is the sorry I got caught and will do better at not getting caught the next time, sorrow of the world - producing death.

 

[JonC]

You cannot separate the sin from the sinner! It was our SINS that Christ carried in His body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24)

Sure you can. Does God redeem sin, or does God redeem sinners. Does God justify sin, or does He justify sinners?

Sins are manifestations of our sinfulness.

 

[agedman]

There are certain things that God cannot do; He cannot deny Himself. He cannot be other that angry with sinners, but His wrath is not arbitrary; it is a settled and righteous anger (Psalm 7:11) against sin and sinners. Your smokescreen concerning sin and sinners is, as I've stated so many times before, a false dichotomy. 'For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust [sinners]' (1 Peter 3:18).

Martin,
If God "cannot be other that(n) angry with sinners, ... His wrath not arbitrary, ... settled in righteous anger" what happened to such expressions at the confrontation of Adam in Eden?

What of that of Noah, Moses, Abraham? Were they not sinners?

What of Christ who is God in the flesh?

See, in actuality, God does moderate His wrath, His anger is subject to purpose (vengeance) and not revenge.

What sins are made righteous by the suffering of Christ that were not completely forgiven in the blood shed?

 

[JonC]

There are certain things that God cannot do; He cannot deny Himself. He cannot be other that angry with sinners, but His wrath is not arbitrary; it is a settled and righteous anger (Psalm 7:11) against sin and sinners. Your smokescreen concerning sin and sinners is, as I've stated so many times before, a false dichotomy. 'For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust [sinners]' (1 Peter 3:18).

Yes. God cannot condemn the righteous, view His Son as other than Himself, treat that which is holy as if it were unholy, lie, break his word, abandon his Messiah. But these things are not shackles. They tell us about God and inform us of why your theory is wrong.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

So, you would probably hold that if one is not thoroughly repentant there is no salvation granted?

What if one remembered something years later they neglected to repent, some thorn in the side temptation that would over take them in a fault? Were such granted salvation years before?

Is there a point that repentance becomes a merry-go-round and salvation is a yo-yo?




Titus 3:5:

5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Now, I see a problem in your presenting Titus 3 as supporting your thinking.

Unless you can show that human repentance is an act of righteousness, then it remains a work that FOLLOWS belief, not precedes it.

See, above that "the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" placed BEFORE being "made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." NOT after.

Perhaps, you missed this, but basic personality studies show that one does not truly repent (turn from their wicked ways) without there FIRST being changed in the very core of their belief system. I don't stop an addiction unless there is a change that compels me to stop an addiction. This is shown in such things as Cognitive Behavior Theory. (brief description found here: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy | Psychology Today)

This is remarked by the Apostle in 2 Timothy that such repentance comes from God:

24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.​

That such repentance is first brought on by God in the form of sorrow (2 Corinthians 7)

9I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. 10For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.​

The point being that repentance follows a core change which allows the Godly sorrow producing repentance.

Belief is before Godly sorrow, not following it.

One believes and is extremely sorrowful and repentant.
One does not become extremely sorrowful and repentant without first having an internal change.

Or such is the sorry I got caught and will do better at not getting caught the next time, sorrow of the world - producing death.

It is Jesus Christ, and not me, that says, "repent and believe in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), and "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5). Looks very clear to me that if a sinner does not REPENT first, they can never be saved! This is not as some wrongly suppose, that God does for you!

 

[agedman]

It is Jesus Christ, and not me, that says, "repent and believe in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), and "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5). Looks very clear to me that if a sinner does not REPENT first, they can never be saved! This is not as some wrongly suppose, that God does for you!

What is your definition of repent and the parameters of how it is evidenced?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

What is your definition of repent and the parameters of how it is evidenced?

" For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death" - 2 Corinthians 7:10

 

[TCassidy]

" For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death" - 2 Corinthians 7:10

Okay. And what is the source of that Godly sorrow? (Hint: See the word "Godly.")

So, just as we have been saying all along. God regenerates our sin sick soul, gives us grace to believe/repent, which leads to our salvation: Positional Salvation, we are now saved from the penalty of sin; Progressive Salvation, we are being saved from the power of sin; Permanent Salvation, we will be saved from the presence of sin when He takes us to Heaven.

It appears to me that you have conflated regeneration and salvation. They are not the same thing. Regeneration leads to salvation. Just as it leads to faith/repentance/obedience. Without a new heart you cannot believe/repent/obey.

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Okay. And what is the source of that Godly sorrow? (Hint: See the word "Godly.")

So, just as we have been saying all along. God regenerates our sin sick soul, gives us grace to believe/repent, which leads to our salvation: Positional Salvation, we are now saved from the penalty of sin; Progressive Salvation, we are being saved from the power of sin; Permanent Salvation, we will be saved from the presence of sin when He takes us to Heaven.

It appears to me that you have conflated regeneration and salvation. They are not the same thing. Regeneration leads to salvation. Just as it leads to faith/repentance/obedience. Without a new heart you cannot believe/repent/obey.

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I really do not understand why you keep banging that same old, worn out drum? You ought to know full well, that as Titus 3:5 very clearly states, "REGENERATION", is the SAME as being "BORN-AGAIN", which is what the Greek word use here, "παλιγγενεσία", literally means! "πάλιν and γένεσις". So, you say that God "regenerates" (makes "born-again") the sick soul, "which leads to our salvation" (being "born-again"). So each sinner is BORN AGAIN TWICE!!! You say they are not the same thing. Yet Titus 3:5 is very clear that IT IS!

 

[TCassidy]

I really do not understand why you keep banging that same old, worn out drum?

Because you can never repeat God's Truth too many times.

You ought to know full well, that as Titus 3:5 very clearly states, "REGENERATION", is the SAME as being "BORN-AGAIN",

Yes, we all know that. We have told you we all know that several times, but for some reason it just doesn't seem to sink in.

So, you say that God "regenerates" (makes "born-again") the sick soul, "which leads to our salvation" (being "born-again").

And there is your error, right there in black and white. Salvation DOES NOT equate to "born again." Our salvation is a three-fold process, which I have already expounded upon but you seem to have missed. Regeneration is the basis for our receiving, believing, and understanding the Gospel. While we are still dead in our trespass and sin we do not receive, believe, or understand the Gospel. God first gives us a new heart of faith (IE, we are born again - regenerated).

So each sinner is BORN AGAIN TWICE!!!

Only in your mind because you keep making the error of conflating regeneration with salvation. One is instant the other is progressive.

You say they are not the same thing. Yet Titus 3:5 is very clear that IT IS!

If you would read what Titus 3;5 Actually says instead of what you wish it said you would see how wrong you are.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

How does God save us? According to our innate faith which we, while lost, somehow manage to exercise? No but "according to his mercy, he saved us," how? Through the washing of regeneration.

Now let's look at the immediate following context.

Titus 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;

He poured out the Holy Spirit richly on us, through the Atonement of Christ.

Titus 3:7 that being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[agedman]

I really do not understand why you keep banging that same old, worn out drum? You ought to know full well, that as Titus 3:5 very clearly states, "REGENERATION", is the SAME as being "BORN-AGAIN", which is what the Greek word use here, "παλιγγενεσία", literally means! "πάλιν and γένεσις". So, you say that God "regenerates" (makes "born-again") the sick soul, "which leads to our salvation" (being "born-again"). So each sinner is BORN AGAIN TWICE!!! You say they are not the same thing. Yet Titus 3:5 is very clear that IT IS!

The "washing (loutrou) of regeneration (palingenesias)" (also used in Matthew 19:28) is that awakening given, that genesis of conception, that eventually causes the believer to respond to the claim Christ has on their life. It is that change in the core, that causes the person to respond in proclamation of belief.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy,"
​

So HOW was that salvation accomplished?

"by the washing of regeneration (loutrou palingenesias) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,"
​

To what end or conclusion or reason?

7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

The point being, that the person is SAVED ALREADY prior to any "repentance" and that that "washing of regeneration" is what compels that person to turn around (repentance) and follow Christ.

Repentance doesn't bring salvation, salvation brings repentance.

As already shown, Paul gives a slightly different sequence when it comes to those who are already believers that find that they were practicing or endorsing error. Again, repentance is to turn around and quit going the wrong direction.

So Paul states that God will bring a certain unmistakable sorrow according to His will and that will produce a repentance without any regret (for whatever reason).

"For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation,..." (2 Corinthians 7).
​

The point being that the repentance in BOTH places is totally by God and indicative of an already changed core (salvation).

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The "washing (loutrou) of regeneration (palingenesias)" (also used in Matthew 19:28) is that awakening given, that genesis of conception, that eventually causes the believer to respond to the claim Christ has on their life. It is that change in the core, that causes the person to respond in proclamation of belief.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy,"
​

So HOW was that salvation accomplished?

"by the washing of regeneration (loutrou palingenesias) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,"
​

To what end or conclusion or reason?

7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

The point being, that the person is SAVED ALREADY prior to any "repentance" and that that "washing of regeneration" is what compels that person to turn around (repentance) and follow Christ.

Repentance doesn't bring salvation, salvation brings repentance.

As already shown, Paul gives a slightly different sequence when it comes to those who are already believers that find that they were practicing or endorsing error. Again, repentance is to turn around and quit going the wrong direction.

So Paul states that God will bring a certain unmistakable sorrow according to His will and that will produce a repentance without any regret (for whatever reason).

"For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation,..." (2 Corinthians 7).
​

The point being that the repentance in BOTH places is totally by God and indicative of an already changed core (salvation).

[False accusation edited] "The point being, that the person is SAVED ALREADY prior to any "repentance""

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Because you can never repeat God's Truth too many times.

Yes, we all know that. We have told you we all know that several times, but for some reason it just doesn't seem to sink in.

And there is your error, right there in black and white. Salvation DOES NOT equate to "born again." Our salvation is a three-fold process, which I have already expounded upon but you seem to have missed. Regeneration is the basis for our receiving, believing, and understanding the Gospel. While we are still dead in our trespass and sin we do not receive, believe, or understand the Gospel. God first gives us a new heart of faith (IE, we are born again - regenerated).

Only in your mind because you keep making the error of conflating regeneration with salvation. One is instant the other is progressive.

If you would read what Titus 3;5 Actually says instead of what you wish it said you would see how wrong you are.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

How does God save us? According to our innate faith which we, while lost, somehow manage to exercise? No but "according to his mercy, he saved us," how? Through the washing of regeneration.

Now let's look at the immediate following context.

Titus 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;

He poured out the Holy Spirit richly on us, through the Atonement of Christ.

Titus 3:7 that being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You can make the Bible say anything you want it to!

 

[agedman]

[False accusation edited] "The point being, that the person is SAVED ALREADY prior to any "repentance""

Such a claim, must have both witness and Scripture testimony.

For witnesses: Perhaps you should report the post so all administration may examine the claim.

For Scripture testimony: Take my post, post opposing Scripture, and validate your claim that this old man teaches heresy.

You stand as an accuser of a believer.

It is a very terrible claim you have made.

You must either recant the claim, or prove the case in which the administration will remove me from the BB.

 

[agedman]

[False accusation edited] "The point being, that the person is SAVED ALREADY prior to any "repentance""

I'm waiting.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Such a claim, must have both witness and Scripture testimony.

For witnesses: Perhaps you should report the post so all administration may examine the claim.

For Scripture testimony: Take my post, post opposing Scripture, and validate your claim that this old man teaches heresy.

You stand as an accuser of a believer.

It is a very terrible claim you have made.

You must either recant the claim, or prove the case in which the administration will remove me from the BB.

I make a charge which I believe to be Biblically true, the Bible very clearly says, "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). [Insult edited] First comes "repentance", the "conversion" which leads to the sinners sins being forgiven!

 

[agedman]

I make a charge which I believe to be Biblically true, the Bible very clearly says, "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19).[Insult edited] First comes "repentance", the "conversion" which leads to the sinners sins being forgiven!

Who is the audience that Peter is addressing in Acts 3?

What are these people know as?

Why would they need to repent first?

Here is the passage in part for you to look at and answer:

“Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk? 13“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. 14“But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. 16“And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. 17“And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18“But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.​

See, Peter was not stating they needed to repent to be saved, but repent to be RESTORED! The KJV uses "convert" which is a bit misleading (imo). The Greek word means to return.

That "times of refreshing may come" and God would send Jesus, The Christ appointed for them.

Try again.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Who is the audience that Peter is addressing in Acts 3?

What are these people know as?

Why would they need to repent first?

Here is the passage in part for you to look at and answer:

“Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk? 13“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. 14“But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. 16“And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. 17“And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18“But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.​

See, Peter was not stating they needed to repent to be saved, but repent to be RESTORED! The KJV uses "convert" which is a bit misleading (imo). The Greek word means to return.

That "times of refreshing may come" and God would send Jesus, The Christ appointed for them.

Try again.

If you read the start of Luke 13, you will see Jesus speak of repenting or else perishing, which can only mean from their sins to salvation. You have it the other way round!