What or who is predestinated?

[Martin]

I would like to see how he deals with the parable of the banqueting table where it clearly states: "Many are called but few are chosen."

He needs to read that parable and see that there is clearly something the choice is based upon. It is based upon the garments they are wearing, which obviously represent the garments of righteousness attained through faith. So much for unconditional election.

==Do you think that parable (Matt 22:1-14) somehow contradicts the clear statements of Jesus in John 6 (etc)? Who comes to Christ? Who are those who "were gathered together" and filled the dinner hall? Those the Father has given to the Son (John 6:37, 17:2). The offer of salvation goes out, the Gospel is preached. Many, indeed, are invited (called), but only some are chosen (elected). People chose, if you want to use that term, to come to Christ because the Father has given them to Jesus.

 

[canadyjd]

Suppose there are two football coaches living there in your hometown, Coach Calvin and Coach Arminian. Coach Calvin is in a league where he coaches a team he has individually selected. Coach Arminian is in a league where he coaches a team who has individually chose to voluntarily join his team. Coach Calvin predetermined who would be on his team, while Coach Arminian allowed his team to join voluntarily. However, one thing they both had in common is that prior to the teams being formed both coaches had predetermined to conform their team members into conditioned football players.

The problem with Coach Arminian is that everyone in town hates football, no one wants to play. What Coach Calvin realizes is that God has changed certain people's hearts to make them love football. Those that God has changed, greatfully play for Coach Calvin. Some even go play for Coach Arminian, until they realize Coach Calvin knows more about the game.:tongue3:

Martin: I think what you are saying is that "foreknowledge" means knowing as in a relationship; not; knowing as in mentally assessing certain facts. God foreknew those He predestined, meaning His relationship with them has been before the foundation of the world (in some way known only to God). If you look at the context, you will see foreknowledge favors "relationship" not "information".

peace to youraise:

 

[Brother Bob]

Ephesians, chapter 1

"11": In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"12": That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


He plainly shows the difference in the two in the above Scripture and we are of those who "also trusted"raise:
We are not of those "who first trusted in Christ" but the Apostles were.:type:

 

[Dale-c]

BB, so what is your point?
We all believe that one must trust in Christ in order to be saved.
I for one have never denied that nor have I seen anyone else deny that.
But if you are truly saved, it is because God changed your heart to believe the Gospel, whether you admit that or not.

 

[Brother Bob]

The point is that the Scripture is not talking about us being the predestinated. It is talking about the plan of Salvation and is talking to those who first believe in Christ which is not you or I but those who received Jesus when He first came. We are of those who after hearing the word of truth the Gospel of our Salvation and after we had believed then were we sealed with the Spirit of Holy Promise. It is plainly talking about two groups.:type: Please not the words "after you had believed". We must believe in Christ but the Scripture is talking about those "who first trusted in Christ" and it was not you or I but those "as many as received He gave them power to become the sons of God".

 

[Dale-c]

The point is that the Scripture is not talking about us being the predestinated.

I do not believe that you can read the plain text of the scripture and truly believe that.
I don't see how you can say that without being in total denial of the clear REVEALED word of God.

 

[Rippon]

A heaping hunk of Scripture would have to be ignored to get rid of the very plain teaching of predestination . BB , that rug under which you swept all those Scriptures is getting rather lumpy ! Don't be afraid -- freely yield to biblical testimony . If it is your habit to neglect the express statements from God's Holy Word you are on tenuous ground .

The Holy Scripture will look very holey if you keep snipping away like Thomas Jefferson did .

 

[Martin]

The point is that the Scripture is not talking about us being the predestinated. It is talking about the plan of Salvation and is talking to those who first believe in Christ which is not you or I but those who received Jesus when He first came.

==That is certainly an interesting understanding of the text. So you would say that only those who first trusted in Christ are "blessed...with every spiritual blessing" (vs3)? You would say that only those who first trusted in Christ are in "the beloved" (vs6)? You would say that only those who first trusted in Christ have "redemption through His blood" and "the forgiveness" of sins (vs7)?

I think your understanding of this is somewhat problematic. However we could leave Ephesians 1 alone and look at several other passages that clearly show that God's election determines who comes to believe in Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

==That is certainly an interesting understanding of the text. So you would say that only those who first trusted in Christ are "blessed...with every spiritual blessing" (vs3)? You would say that only those who first trusted in Christ are in "the beloved" (vs6)? You would say that only those who first trusted in Christ have "redemption through His blood" and "the forgiveness" of sins (vs7)?

I am saying that this is to the first group that Peter was talking to, no doubt the Jews who had received Christ and were the first who trusted in him, but there were two groups there and he then spoke to the second group and said they received the same but by "belief" and not by being predestinated to receive it, but if they believed then it was predestinated that they would receive Salvation by the Lord and also "blessed...with every spiritual blessing" and "redemption through His blood" and "the forgiveness" of sins but by trust and belief in the Lord. It is very plain that Peter was talking to two groups of people, surely you can see that, if not then it is you who is sweeping under the rug, not I.:Fish:

Ephesians, chapter 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( This is what he chose before the foundation of the world ).
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (This is by who we would be adopted that was predestinated)
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Saying that we were saved by Grace of God).
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (Saying it takes the blood of Christ to save us and not predestinaton).
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (Saying "Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men).
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Saying that the middle wall of partition would be broke down where we become as one people in Christ).
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (saying the inheritance was predestinated if we would do what He commanded and that is repent and believe).
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Saying that those who first trusted in Christ would obtain an inheritance that had been predestinated being the way they would receive Salvation).
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Saying that we too can obtain that inheritance if we trust in Christ and believe). Its as simple as that giving all men a chance to be Saved.


I am saying that which is in red in the above is what was predestinated and what is in blue is the explanation. I am saying Peter in the first part was talking to the Jews that had received Christ when He came but He did not leave us out for he continues and say "in whom ye also trusted" but only after ye "believed". I am saying that in order the predestinated is received by being a believer. I am not leaving out anything but it is plain that Peter was talking to two groups. If you deny that then it is you who deny the Scripture.

 

[J.D.]

4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( This is what he chose before the foundation of the world ).

I just noticed this from your post. I think the verse says He chose a who, not a what. "he hath chosen us"

Reminds me of Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

 

[Dale-c]

This is quite clear Bob, no need to twist.

In Whom, whom whom.....
not what what what.

 

[Brother Bob]

Show me where this took place before the foundation of the world or even before you believed because we were all sinners before we were saved. We surely were not Justified, Glorified, Comformed to the Image of His Son, now were we? No twisting, don't believe in it. :wavey:

Romans 8
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Love the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve which is the first Commandment is it not?
No where does it say before the foundation of the world but that he foreknew them. He foreknew them before Salvation and then were they part of the predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.
None of them were justified before, none of them were called before, none of them conformed to the image of His Son before, none of them were glorified before.
It took faith/belief in Christ for these things to happen.raise:

 

[J.D.]

You've got me brobob. I just don't have the energy to answer that last question. I give up. You tell me, when were you foreknown? and when were you glorified?

 

[Brother Bob]

When I believed that Jesus was the Christ He knew me for the Scripture says the face of God is against them who do evil. Its like the Prodical Son when he started home the Father looked out and seen him coming. Same here when I believed the Jesus knew that my heart had open up to believe in Him and say get behind me Satan I don't want to go your way anymore. Bless,raying:

 

[Dale-c]

JD, I don't know what to do. I think he is proving that you can't change a heart without God.
It is there as plain as day for anyone to see.


it says "predestinate to be conformed"

The predestination happened when? Before the foundations of the world. When does this conforming and justification happen? During the persons life time.
This is simple stuff. We are arguing on a 3rd grade level here. However:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(I Corinthians 2:14)

I don't know what else to say when you just refuse to admit the clear text of the Bible, BB.

 

[Brother Bob]

Where does it say that predestination happened before the world? :Fish:

It says by Jesus Christ to Himself we would be predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son. In other words the blood of Christ. amen:Fish: :sleeping_2: :sleeping_2:

 

[J.D.]

JD, I don't know what to do. I think he is proving that you can't change a heart without God.
It is there as plain as day for anyone to see.


it says "predestinate to be conformed"

The predestination happened when? Before the foundations of the world. When does this conforming and justification happen? During the persons life time.
This is simple stuff. We are arguing on a 3rd grade level here. However:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(I Corinthians 2:14)

I don't know what else to say when you just refuse to admit the clear text of the Bible, BB.

Dale, there are 3 reasons that people reject the truth: 1. They are too invested in their system to admit they're wrong; 2. They are not capable of logical cognition; or 3. I don't remember the third one.

Good Night!

 

[Dale-c]

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Ephesians 1:4)

 

[Brother Bob]

You should know, Bless raise: :Fish:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Ephesians 1:4)

That in red is what was chosen before the foundation of the world. Bless :Fish: :sleeping_2:

 

[Dale-c]

According as he hath chosen {who?} us {where?} in him{when?} before the foundation of the world, {why?} that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Ephesians 1:4)
Simple lesson in third grade grammar