What or who is predestinated?

[saturneptune]

First of all, I am not your home boy. But since you brought the subject up, did you ever watch the Munsters in the 1960's?

 

[webdog]

Webdog,
Did you say a "hint of arrogance" in Arthur's posts. Now that is the understatement of the year. Arthur, it seems to me that everyone you talk to has the same reaction. Webdog and I disagree on Calvinism. We are in full agreement on your motives. And dont forget your J.

It was actually Dale's post, saturneptune.

I wish the personal attacks would stop from both sides, already, and let's discuss these issues like brothers. I understand that even in families, there are quarrels, fighting and teasing, but at the end of the day, we are still brothers who will have an eternity to fellowship together. Let's get an early start now!

 

[Blammo]

Who was predestinated to be conformed to the image of God's Son?

Those who, according to God's forknowledge, would obey the Gospel. Nobody was predestined to obey the Gospel. Those who God foreknew would obey the Gosple were predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. It seems pretty simple to me.

BTW: If Christ has already made an efficacious atonement for the sins of an elect person, is that elect person actually lost during the period prior to their being saved? During the period before an elect person gets saved, how are they condemned already (for not believing) when their unbelief (which is a sin) has already been paid for by Christ on the cross?

Please do not answer these questions with more questions.

 

[Brother Bob]

Nor does many other post. So will you join with me and ask your buddy to keep the personals down and stay on subject? Can you stand up to him? Lets see what your made of Bob. You no longer attack...do you? Can you talk you "Home boy" into keeping it down?

I would much rather stand up to you for all the remarks in the past you made against me if I have to stand up to someone. If you call him home boy what do you expect. I believe I remember you saying you was a "big" boy so go man go.
Don't forget the rooster though.

 

[Jarthur001]

I would much rather stand up to you for all the remarks in the past you made against me if I have to stand up to someone. If you call him home boy what do you expect. I believe I remember you saying you was a "big" boy so go man go.
Don't forget the rooster though.

"Home boy" is a given and often used phrase that means..."local Buddy". I though he told us you guys are buddies and live close. If not..never mind.

So..you can not stand up to him. Ok...

 

[saturneptune]

Bob, I think he forgot the rooster.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Blammo,

Who was predestinated to be conformed to the image of God's Son?

The elect.

Those who, according to God's forknowledge, would obey the Gospel.

This view is easily refuted for it is contrary to both common sense and Scripture!!! This has been shown over and over again. Election is to salvation, and therefore, must precede salvation. It is nonsense to talk about electing a man to something he already has. The man has salvation when he believes and hence election at that point would not be necessary.
ELECTION TOOK PLACE IN ETERNITY; SALVATION TAKES PLACE WHEN THE SINNER BELIEVES.

Nobody was predestined to obey the Gospel.

Are you talking to me...or God?

Those who God foreknew would obey the Gosple were predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. It seems pretty simple to me.

Yes...good idea. Only one thing. Its not in the Bible. Sorry

BTW: If Christ has already made an efficacious atonement for the sins of an elect person, is that elect person actually lost during the period prior to their being saved? During the period before an elect person gets saved, how are they condemned already (for not believing) when their unbelief (which is a sin) has already been paid for by Christ on the cross?

Get a new book. This has already been covered. Better yet...save your money by not buying a book and read the Bible. Another idea...read the thread.

Please do not answer these questions with more questions.

You mean like Christ did?

 

[Brother Bob]

Saturneptune;
The rooster won't forget him. You can count on that.

BTW James we are brothers in Christ.

 

[saturneptune]

Arthur,
If you cannot answer Blammo's question about the time before salvation in an elect person in a sane and civil manner, or if you do not know, try another thread.

 

[Blammo]

It is what the Bible says:

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Once again, your arguement is not with me.

And, once again, you don't answer questions.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello webdog,

I'm trying to clarify the state of Pharaoh, and those spiritually dead...was he dead, or not? The argument has been presented that spiritually dead people cannot respond to God, and only choose sin. Would it have been sin for Pharaoh to let Gods' people go?

Let me submit to you this argument..

God harden the heart of Pharaoh...to bring glory to his name in the eyes of His people. God was about a take a ton of people home. It had nothing to do with Pharaoh choice. Knowing Pharaoh would sin God only used his sin, to glory His name. Each time Pharaoh said no...his lust for power to control and out wait God...made him determined (hardened) keep his power and control, and fell into Gods plan which God know he would God counted on it. I think it went something like this.

Moses...LET MY PEOPLE GO!
Pharaoh...NO!!
God...sends plague
Gods people...WOW..did you see what God did?

Moses...LET MY PEOPLE GO!
Pharaoh...NO!!
God...sends 2nd plague
Gods people...YES!! Our...God has power!!

Moses...LET MY PEOPLE GO!
Pharaoh...NO!!
God...sends 3rd plague
Gods people...THATS MY GOD THAT DID THAT!! He can do anything!!

And on....

So it is with all respect that I call this common free will argument as a stawman. God only use Pharaoh and baited Pharaoh (drawn by his own lust) into doing what he needed. I know some may not like that word "baited"....so choose your own word here. Pharaoh heart would only choose sin...and harden here means...he became even more determined to have his own will over some "God he could not see". After all...He was king over the land. Who is this God of the slaves telling him what to do??

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18 Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now. 19 Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.' "

The Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, which I take as he had the option of letting God's people go...which means in a spiritually "corpsed" state, he could respond to God.

I see it as Pharaoh did not choose God..as any other spiritually dead man. With each "NO"..the determined Pharaoh just kept going down that path away from God. It was God that caused this.

God put the final nail in the coffin, and hardened Pharaoh's heart ensuring this (this is another topic, but I believe God hardened his heart by blessing the Israelites).

I do not see it that way at all. Pharaohs place before God was unchanged. Pharaoh was a non believer before and after this. If you live a life as Hitler and go to hell...or you live your life as a war hero and go to hell...both go to hell. God change nothing in Pharaoh place. He was dead in sins before...and after. He only used his lust to control him.

Another example is 2 Cor. 4:4 which shows spiritually dead men (unbelievers) who are blinded from hearing the truth...why?...to keep them from seeing the light of the Gospel! A corpse cannot see anything, as has been argued, and if they are indeed corpses, satan would be thrilled, and would never need to blind these corpses.

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I would call this....SIN NATURE

 

[Jarthur001]

It is what the Bible says:

Romans 8:28-30

And we (paul talking to believer) know that all things work together for good to them that love God,(loving God is a sign of those that believe God) to them who are the called(elected before the world was made) according to his (God)purpose. (God chooses whom he will)For whom he (God)did foreknow, (before the world) he (God) also did predestinate (had a plan of salvation where the destination is known before hand)to be conformed (changed) to the image of his Son, (like unto)that he (Christ)might be the firstborn (1st one of the new birth) among many brethren. (The believers at the 1st of the verse) Moreover whom he (Christ) did predestinate, (had a plan of salvation where the destination is known before hand)them he (God) also called: (elected) and whom he(God) called, (elected) them he (God)also justified: (sins coved under the blood and made just as if you have never sinned) and whom he (God) justified, (sins coved under the blood and made just as if you have never sinned)them (the believers at the 1st of the verse) he (God) also glorified. (will one day bring to glory)

Once again, your arguement is not with me.

And, once again, you don't answer questions.

Indeed it is.

 

[Jarthur001]

BTW..as I have said before, my full view on predestination is posted on page 2 post #13 of this tread.

 

[Blammo]

Romans 8:28-30

And we (paul talking to believer) know that all things work together for good to them that love God,(loving God is a sign of those that believe God) to them who are the called(elected before the world was made) according to his (God)purpose. (God chooses whom he will)For whom he (God)did foreknow, (before the world) he (God) also did predestinate (had a plan of salvation where the destination is known before hand)to be conformed (changed) to the image of his Son, (like unto)that he (Christ)might be the firstborn (1st one of the new birth) among many brethren. (The believers at the 1st of the verse) Moreover whom he (Christ) did predestinate, (had a plan of salvation where the destination is known before hand)them he (God) also called: (elected) and whom he(God) called, (elected) them he (God)also justified: (sins coved under the blood and made just as if you have never sinned) and whom he (God) justified, (sins coved under the blood and made just as if you have never sinned)them (the believers at the 1st of the verse) he (God) also glorified. (will one day bring to glory)Indeed it is.

Notice: I did not add anything to the word of God. Look at how much you had to add to make it fit your doctrine.

You have accused me before of thinking the atonement was insufficient to save all that Christ died for. But, it didn't save you until you believed, did it?

 

[Jarthur001]

Notice: I did not add anything to the word of God. Look at how much you had to add to make it fit your doctrine.

You have accused me before of thinking the atonement was insufficient to save all that Christ died for. But, it didn't save you until you believed, did it?

whatever. I don't need the words. You overlooked most of them..I only helped point them out. yeah..lets do it this way..

in one short line tell me what predestined means. or...are you saying this one verse says it all?

 

[Brother Bob]

If you will believe you will be conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[Jarthur001]

You have accused me before of thinking the atonement was insufficient to save all that Christ died for. But, it didn't save you until you believed, did it?

Does the words.."it is is finished" mean anything to you?

Does the word ransom mean anything to you?

This simply shows you do not know the meaning of atonement, and the word ransom. RANSOM was the word you used..was it not?


Look the words up..and get back with us.

 

[Blammo]

whatever. I don't need the words. You overlooked most of them..I only helped point them out. yeah..lets do it this way..

in one short line tell me what predestined means. or...are you saying this one verse says it all?

It means believers are destined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, and that destiny was decided before it happens. Also, according to the verse, this was due to the foreknowledge of God.

 

[Blammo]

Does the words.."it is is finished" mean anything to you?

Does the word ransom mean anything to you?

This simply shows you do not know the meaning of atonement, and the word ransom. RANSOM was the word you used..was it not?


Look the words up..and get back with us.

So you were born saved?

 

[Blammo]

If you will believe you will be conformed to the image of His Son.

Yep, that's what I see. :thumbs: