What or who is predestinated?

[Dale-c]

Ok, I have been gone a while....
Saturn, it looks like you are still trying to turn a discussion of Christian brothers into a ____ Contest. That would probably get edited so I will leave it out.
Until you specify what I did that was so wrong, I see no need to deal with you.

Ok,, back to the post, and thanks web dog and Bob for discussing the actual post!

Bob Said:

If you will believe you will be conformed to the image of His Son.

Yes, I agree with that statement and that is exactly what this post is about.
You say it is a what, I say it is a who.
You say the predestination is what happens (the conformation) to those who believe.

I believe that the Bible clearly says that it is the person that it predestined and those other things that follow are the things that person is predestined to.

Again,

Here is the verse:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So, let's look a little closer:

For whom he did foreknow, he also (also refers to the "whom")did predestinate( for what purpose was this person foreknown and predestinated?) to be conformed to the image of his Son,( Ah, I see, to be conformed to the image of His Son.){ Why?} that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Jarthur001]

It means believers are destined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, and that destiny was decided before it happens. Also, according to the verse, this was due to the foreknowledge of God.

I nearly agree with this...how about that??

Let me put is shorter.."destiny is known by God and now we can know"

really..the word only means.."destiny is known" ...but in most context it take on.."by God"

You add this all the time.."conformed to the image of God's Son" for you see no break in the verse...but I want you to think about this before I show you something. Go back and read that verse one more time before you say this is what is means. If you have a greek word study Bible use it. Now..I'll be glad to use this if you want...it only makes my case stronger.

again..I simply say..."destiny is known" by God and now we can know.
Its the plan of salvation....heaven is the end...we know heaven is the end. It was Gods plan.

conformed to the image of God...I will take this if you want. But let it be known now...I will show you this is election if you do.

As I have said all along...predestination is something both sides can agree on. many use the word election and predestination as the same. and that's ok..if we understand we are using them that way. Yet from the Bible..predestination is not the same as election. But..if you want to give me a free one...I'll gladly take it.

In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

Dale..you took my fire...haha. I was taking them the LONG way home.

They get mad when I do that..

You go for it tonight...i need a short one tonight.

See you guys tomorrow.

BTW...if i did the search right...we have the longest running thread in the history of the board.

also...4000!!!! viewers on this thread....whooa That too maybe a record.

later...


In Christ...James

 

[saturneptune]

Come on Dale, fill in the blank. You might as well. You thought it. Pondered it. The sin has been committed, that is if you believe what Jesus said in Matthew. You seem awful worried what men think.

 

[Blammo]

I nearly agree with this...how about that??

Let me put is shorter.."destiny is known by God and now we can know"

really..the word only means.."destiny is known" ...but in most context it take on.."by God"

You add this all the time.."conformed to the image of God's Son" for you see no break in the verse...but I want you to think about this before I show you something. Go back and read that verse one more time before you say this is what is means. If you have a greek word study Bible use it. Now..I'll be glad to use this if you want...it only makes my case stronger.

again..I simply say..."destiny is known" by God and now we can know.
Its the plan of salvation....heaven is the end...we know heaven is the end. It was Gods plan.

conformed to the image of God...I will take this if you want. But let it be known now...I will show you this is election if you do.

As I have said all along...predestination is something both sides can agree on. many use the word election and predestination as the same. and that's ok..if we understand we are using them that way. Yet from the Bible..predestination is not the same as election. But..if you want to give me a free one...I'll gladly take it.

In Christ..James

proorizw proorizo pro-or-id'-zo: determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Where is the break?)

Just a reminder: I asked you a question earlier. A simple yes or no will do. Were you born saved?

 

[Dale-c]

Dale..you took my fire...haha. I was taking them the LONG way home.

They get mad when I do that..

You go tonight...i need a short night tonight.

See you guys tomorrow.

BTW...if i did the search right...we have the longest running tread in the history of the board.

also...4000!!!! viewers....whooa That too maybe a record too.

later...


In Christ...James

James, another record on this thread:

I have used the following operating system and web browsers to post on this thread:

Safari on PowerPC Mac Mini
Firefox on PowerPC Mac Mini
Firefox on Windows XP
Firefox on Ubuntu Linux
Firefox on Windows Vista Bete
INternet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista Beta
Now I am using my Dads new Intel Core Duo Mac miini.

James, could you make one post on Mac OS 9? We would then have it all!

Well, if anyone has a BeBox around or a NeXT cube....

 

[Brother Bob]

Read em and weep!!

Ephesians, chapter 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( This is what he chose before the foundation of the world ).
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (This is by who we would be adopted that was predestinated)
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Saying that we were saved by Grace of God).
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (Saying it takes the blood of Christ to save us and not predestinaton).
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (Saying "Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men).
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Saying that the middle wall of partition would be broke down where we become as one people in Christ).
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (saying the inheritance was predestinated if we would do what He commanded and that is repent and believe).
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Saying that those who first trusted in Christ would obtain an inheritance that had been predestinated being the way they would receive Salvation).
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Saying that we too can obtain that inheritance if we trust in Christ and believe). Its as simple as that giving all men a chance to be Saved.

Romans, chapter 11
1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

"2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

"3": Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

"4": But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

"5": Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(By Grace are ye saved through faith "believing") You must believe that I am He.
"6": And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

"7": What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

"8": (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

"9": And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

"10": Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

"11": I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Dale-c]

Come on Dale, fill in the blank. You might as well. You thought it. Pondered it. The sin has been committed, that is if you believe what Jesus said in Matthew. You seem awful worried what men think.

If I was in an open in person discussion, I would have said it. It is not a sin. That word is in the Bible. (look it up)
But I am not trying to cause problems and there are rules on this board, one is that you stay on point...something you refuse to do....


Now, back to the point......I will have to wait to get back to the point because I have an early day tomorrow but I will discuss some more tomorrow evening if you all still want to.

 

[webdog]

I would call this....SIN NATURE

You call the "god of this world" the sin nature? That's a first! FYI...it's satan, and he blinds these corpses from hearing the Gospel. Strange, though, that a corpse needs blinding...

 

[Brother Bob]

BTW...if i did the search right...we have the longest running thread in the history of the board.

also...4000!!!! viewers on this thread....whooa That too maybe a record.

The why!!

Dale..you took my fire...haha. I was taking them the LONG way home.

They get mad when I do that..

It has not been the Christian Love or righteous that drew them here!!

 

[saturneptune]

Brother Bob, Webdog, and Blammo,
An apology is in order to you three. Although on the opposite side from most of you, I feel that discussions can be civil, sane, and without malice. Having said that, a problem of mine for most of my life has been an intolerance of arrogant people. They can be spotted a mile away, and to tell you the truth, I have never learned how to deal with them. Regardless of doctrine, the picture I have in my mind is that of selfishness and wanting to impress. In this entire thread, the most revealing to me was the post by Brother Bob that talked about feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, spreading the Gospel, and living a daily Christian walk with God.

I can know all the doctrine in the world, and if I have not the love of God in me, I am but a clanging symbol. If I dont love my neighbor, the love of God is not in me. The two greatest commands about loving God with all heart, soul, mind and spirit and loving my neighbor as myself are the center of all this.

What really set me off was when the post by Brother Bob was turned into a works salvation on him.

Lofty doctrine never spread the Gospel to one person. A homeless person hungry and without a place to live, and without Jesus, could probably care less if God predestinated or foreknew.

Again, my apologies to you three for having to read it. Ill make it a point to be more civil

 

[Brother Bob]

You don't owe me an apology Saturneptune. You have only shown compassion to me since I been on BB and I thank you for that. peace

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Blammo,

I love it when a plan comes together...don't you? BTW..that ticking sound you hear, is a clock.
I know you guys hate to take the long way around, and I do not mean to pick on you, but if I post meanings you think I twist. When you post meanings...that means you have looked them up and now KNOW i did not twist. right?

so...lets take it to the next step.

proorizw proorizo pro-or-id'-zo: determine before, ordain, predestinate.

We will just hold this meaning for a bit..and come back to it later. deal?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Where is the break?)

You are right!! There is no break..is there? I like the way you have it in bold. The bold is link together. no? I mean...in a so many point outline...this would be point (#whatever). right? I mean...this is what you seem to say. I tried to talk you out of it before...so there is no way you can say I twist, now can you? When you agree with this...I have one more small point before the bomb hits.
UNLESS....
unless you want to put verse 30 with 29. If this is the case, there will be a few more post before the bomb hits. Its up to you. If history plays the same song again..we will end up looking at 30 next. 1 at a time...or together?

Just a reminder: I asked you a question earlier. A simple yes or no will do. Were you born saved?

You did..didn't you. Are you saying we should try to answer our post? If so...I have a deal for you. You answer my "meaning of the word ransom post" that was left 3-4 pages back the 1st time, and reposted about 2 pages back...and I will answer you. deal?



In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

James, another record on this thread:

I have used the following operating system and web browsers to post on this thread:

Safari on PowerPC Mac Mini
Firefox on PowerPC Mac Mini
Firefox on Windows XP
Firefox on Ubuntu Linux
Firefox on Windows Vista Bete
INternet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista Beta
Now I am using my Dads new Intel Core Duo Mac miini.

James, could you make one post on Mac OS 9? We would then have it all!

Well, if anyone has a BeBox around or a NeXT cube....

I may have posted with OS9 from my TAM already. I mean I have, but i'm not sure if it was on this thread.

I can post with SUN's Solaris 9os today. I have about 6 SUN Ultra boxes setting around that I used before OSX came out. I think I have netscape on them.

 

[Brother Bob]

I love it when a plan comes together...don't you? BTW..that ticking sound you hear, is a clock.
I know you guys hate to take the long way around, and I do not mean to pick on you, but if I post meanings you think I twist. When you post meanings...that means you have looked them up and now KNOW i did not twist. right?

I thought it was a bomb your wife had planted under your bed. Just a thought, I know you are not a Pastor but that woman who just killed her husband always comes to mind when I talk with you. peace

We will just hold this meaning for a bit..and come back to it later. deal?

You did..didn't you. Are you saying we should try to answer our post? If so...I have a deal for you.

Now ain't that sweet Blammo? Mine and your trouble is we don't know how to deal or what is sweet and what is not. lol

You gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them
Know when to walk away, know when to run.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

Read em and weep?? Sorry..I don't gamble.

Read em and weep!!

Ephesians, chapter 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( This is what he chose before the foundation of the world ).
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (This is by who we would be adopted that was predestinated)
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Saying that we were saved by Grace of God).
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (Saying it takes the blood of Christ to save us and not predestinaton).
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (Saying "Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men).
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Saying that the middle wall of partition would be broke down where we become as one people in Christ).
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (saying the inheritance was predestinated if we would do what He commanded and that is repent and believe).
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Saying that those who first trusted in Christ would obtain an inheritance that had been predestinated being the way they would receive Salvation).
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Saying that we too can obtain that inheritance if we trust in Christ and believe). Its as simple as that giving all men a chance to be Saved.

I for one don't want to go over Eph 1 this soon again. We have looked at this 3 times in the last 3 months. Each time you end up getting barmy, because i make you say it. And..you know what "it" is. Bob, I am a Calvinist. I say that with no pride just as a lable. Eph 1 and Romans 9 are well known by all Calvinist.

I'm sure all of you know the story of John Piper, taking a few months sabbatical from his teaching duties just to study 1 word located in Romans 9. This story is not unique to Piper. Nearly all that take on the doctrines of grace, have a period where they must make sure they understand what they are reading in Gods Word. The stories I read...most will go off, alone to be with God....for they want to make sure they understand. Realizing that God choose you is a very humbling place to be.

BTW...I do not know where you found that analysis of the text (eph 1) above, but that maybe the most horrible job of commentary of this passage I have ever seen. There is no though given to the meaning of the words at all. It is clear this holds the writers own psychoanalysis prejudice and demolishes the context.

I'll talk with you about the others..if you wish.

 

[Jarthur001]

You want to kill me..huh bob?

I thought it was a bomb your wife had planted under your bed. Just a thought, I know you are not a Pastor but that woman who just killed her husband always comes to mind when I talk with you.

Now ain't that sweet Blammo? Mine and your trouble is we don't know how to deal or what is sweet and what is not. lol

You gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them
Know when to walk away, know when to run.

nice joke. Any chance of you address the post? I guess not.

 

[Brother Bob]

I for one don't want to go over Eph 1 this soon again. We have looked at this 3 times in the last 3 months. Each time you end up getting barmy, because i make you say it. And..you know what "it" is. Bob, I am a Calvinist. I say that with no pride just as a lable. Eph 1 and Romans 9 are well known by all Calvinist.

If I were Calvinist I would hold on to them as well for it is all you got and your veiws do not line up with the rest of God's Holy word.

BTW...I do not know where you found that analysis of the text (eph 1) above, but that maybe the most horrible job of commentary of this passage I have ever seen. There is no though given to the meaning of the words at all. It is clear this holds the writers own psychoanalysis prejudice and demolishes the context.

Again, why does it not surprise me that you don't like my explanation of Eph: 1. Would it be because it don't fit into your belief. Yep, that is it. Wanna deal?

 

[Brother Bob]

You want to kill me..huh bob?

Get real and stop being so silly.

Read em and weep?? Sorry..I don't gamble.

The post is trying to get you to quit gambling.

I going to the gymn.:wavey: :wavey:

 

[David Michael Harris]

Difficulty...

I too find it hard to hold to the belief that God 'wills' people into eternal seperation from Himself. Then again, I am a grasshopper, what do I know!