What Side Of The Fence Are You?

[kyredneck]

I too see not enough clarity in the descriptions to make a choice for neither seem to fully describe what I see the scriptures saying.
It seems to be more of "if you are not like me, then the only alternative is this" kind of thing.


In the above there is no mention of anyone having heard the word or not. (Rom 10:14-17)

No one who believes what the Bible says about the depravity of man would say that man has the natural ability in and of himself to repent and believe the Gospel without the word of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore the heart of the matter is if man has the free will to respond to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit without being the subject of Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace.

The Bible does require man to do something, and that something is to believe; however the Bible goes on to say belief is not a work and those who do believe are saved by the gift of the Faith of Christ, not their personal faith in Christ.


This seems to place salvation on an individual in spite of the individuals choice in the matter of whether to believe or not.
If man does not have this choice, then why does the Bible even give it to him?

Certainly along with all creation by God came the laws of nature and science which control the actions of the whole creation.
But does God control every action within the bounds of these laws?
God created gravity and therefore water always runs down-hill; but does God control the ever changing path of the stream?

I view it much the same as raising children. We create bounds within which they can live and these bounds are expanded as they age.
The ultimate goal is a lifetime son or daughter who will return unrequired love, can manage their own affairs and bring forth the pleasure of grandchildren, not robots.

What a crock of goobly glock..........

 

[kyredneck]

I voted Synergism,

I believe the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to draw men to the point where they must make a free-will decision of whether or not to accept the offer of grace offered by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Finally, a man that makes a stand. Thank you Robert.

 

[saturneptune]

What a crock of goobly glock..........

sounds like one of my wife's recipes.

 

[olegig]

What a crock of goobly glock..........

Is that original or yet another label for someone who does not fit your mold?
Sorry, I simply cannot keep up with all these extra-Biblical terms Calvinist come up with to which they apply their own definitions.

 

[AresMan]

Synergism means that regeneration is the sum result of two autonomous contributions: the Holy Spirit's and man's.

Monergism means that regeneration is the result of a cause-effect relationship: The Holy Spirit acts and the change in the will of man is the effect.

 

[SolaSaint]

I want to change my vote to "Molinism" this is a seldom mentioned doctrine where God retains a measure of divine providence without hindering man's freedom. :thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

Is that original or yet another label for someone who does not fit your mold?
Sorry, I simply cannot keep up with all these extra-Biblical terms Calvinist come up with to which they apply their own definitions.

When it comes to your clouding the utter simplicity of the options provided in the poll, that's exactly what it was- goobly glock.

Did you vote?

 

[olegig]

When it comes to your clouding the utter simplicity of the options provided in the poll, that's exactly what it was- goobly glock.

Did you vote?

No, I did not vote because I see no option for which I can vote.

So far as clouding the options, it appears both options are written solely with the doctrines of Calvinism in mind because both options assume regeneration happens before salvation rather than the possibility that regeneration is a result of salvation.

When I said:
Therefore the heart of the matter is if man has the free will to respond to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit without being the subject of Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace.
I should have said: ....without being the subject of Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and regeneration."

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

I can not vote for the above because it leaves open the possibility that salvation is dependant upon first repenting, or the teaching that a man must make himself somehow presentable before God before God can accept him.
IMO this would be a works based salvation.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

I can not vote for the above because it leaves no room for the will of man to believe which the Bible instructs us to do.

It seems both the above put forth the idea that man cannot believe without first being regenerated with the only difference being whether God does all the regeneration or man has a part in it.

So again I say the poll is clouded by the assumption that regeneration comes before salvation which would indeed bring the argument to works verses a total free gift.
But, IMO, the real argument is whether regeneration is before or after salvation.

Calvinism seems to teach that God cannot receive anyone who is not first regenerated, or made right so thus the argument is who has a hand in this making right.
IMO God receives sinful man on the basis of man's belief and then makes him right.

 

[HankD]

I also cannot honestly pick either one...​

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

In verse 12, man has the responsiblity to believe on His name and "receive Him" and then they are given the power to become sons of God...vs 12​

But then in vs 13 we find out the only ones who do this are those who were born according to the will of God...vs 13.​

Whenever I chase my tail, I never catch it.

HankD's dog (with bewildered look on his face - the dog that is).​

HankD​

 

[psalms109:31]

Will of God

It is the will of God to save believers not the will of man. To make believers children of God. To save believers it is of God.

 

[kyredneck]

I also cannot honestly pick either one...​

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

In verse 12, man has the responsiblity to believe on His name and "receive Him" and then they are given the power to become sons of God...vs 12​

But then in vs 13 we find out the only ones who do this are those who were born according to the will of God...vs 13.​

........when you make the distinction between eternal salvation (monergistic) and gospel salvation (synergistic) as the PBs do, things become clearer.

 

[psalms109:31]

verse 13

They are in a certain order for a reason. They are born of God by His will because it is God's will that believers in the Son will be children of God.

I don't see it they way you do, because Jesus is the hope for the world.

 

[kyredneck]

.....both options assume regeneration happens before salvation rather than the possibility that regeneration is a result of salvation.

I fail to see where you derive that.

....this is basically a yes or no/ true or false proposition. IMO, one should be sure enough in their own convictions to be able to answer a yes or no question.

...and the question concerns how, not when, regeneration occurs. Is it with or without man's cooperation?

 

[kyredneck]

I can’t believe so many voted for “monergism”?!?!......

I expressed surprise also early on in the poll:

I realize that not hardly a fraction of the BB has participated in this poll but I must admit that I'm very surprised at these results. I expected it to be the opposite of what it is.

Is 20-4 a fair indicator of the overall makeup of BB members?

Maybe we'll get a truer indication of the numbers now.

The synergists have already picked up 7 votes to the monergists 0 votes since the thread was bumped to the surface yesterday. Current score - 16 (S) to 30 (M) .

 

[Skandelon]

Besides the issues that others raised, couldn't it also be that more non-Calvinists might be unaware of the terms presented in this poll? To those not involved in this discussion the terms Monergistic and Synergistic mean nothing and more likely would cause them to click off the poll without responding.

For example, if you stick up a poll asking about Post-Trib or Pre-Trib or whatever...this would more than likely only draw voters interested in that particular doctrinal discussion involving the rapture. Disinterested parties would simply click away. So, too in this discussion most people who are "disinterested" in this discussion would be more likely to hold to a more "non-Calvinistic" perspective. I've experienced this both as a Calvinists and now as a non-Calvinist. Many believers are not even aware of the issues involved and think of all these "isms" like some kind of a cult. To suggest to them that God doesn't savingly love all mankind and that he has only selected a relative few to effectually save, would be repulsive to them, though they would more than likely be disinterested in casting a vote about two terms they have never heard before.

Thus, this poll is far from being a fair representation of the BB or Baptists in general.

 

[Winman]

Well, I simply believe that Calvinists especially gravitate toward the Baptist Theology & Bible Study forum. You can go to any Baptist site and you will notice that, Calvinists are very aggressive in promoting their doctrine. Go to another forum like Politics and you will see a more even distribution of Cal and non-Cal.

 

[Jerome]

Is either word found in the Bible?

 

[olegig]

Originally Posted by olegig
.....both options assume regeneration happens before salvation rather than the possibility that regeneration is a result of salvation.

I fail to see where you derive that.

My friend it is quiet simple when the clouds are removed.

Regeneration is used only twice in the scriptures so far as I can find, and both places refer to being made acceptable to be in the presence of God.
Therefore the question becomes is one "made acceptable" or regenerated before one is saved, or after salvation.

If one is regenerated (made acceptable) before one is saved, then the Calvinist do have an argument (and your poll is valid) for if man has anything to do with his being made acceptable; then one might say man had part in his own salvation.
This is the classic C/A argument.

However, if regeneration is after salvation, then it is the total work of the Holy Spirit as stated in Titus 3:5.
The poll becomes useless and the argument becomes one of C&A vs all the rest of us.

Its much like we see in politics today. We see the constant argument over the level of prayer in schools when the argument should be whether or not a distant gov. should even have a say in the matter.

 

[olegig]

Besides the issues that others raised, couldn't it also be that more non-Calvinists might be unaware of the terms presented in this poll? To those not involved in this discussion the terms Monergistic and Synergistic mean nothing and more likely would cause them to click off the poll without responding.

For example, if you stick up a poll asking about Post-Trib or Pre-Trib or whatever...this would more than likely only draw voters interested in that particular doctrinal discussion involving the rapture. Disinterested parties would simply click away. So, too in this discussion most people who are "disinterested" in this discussion would be more likely to hold to a more "non-Calvinistic" perspective.

An interesting concept........

Kyredneck, why not start another poll re-worded to remove all Calvinist (or any other ism's) nomenclature and doctrinal influence.
Word it to relay the same message you originally intended; but with no bias from any point of view.

Any suggestions out there for the poll questions?

 

[Skandelon]

How about:

1. All people are born sinners in need of salvation. God chose to irresistibly save certain number of people from the consequence of their sins, leaving the rest to certain condemnation.

2. All people are born sinners in need of salvation. God chose to reconcile the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.