What Sins Are Christians Capable Of?

[ituttut]

Since John included himself in 1 John 1:9, he must have been unsaved at the time. I wonder when he got saved?

I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

A good eye Hope of Glory. See mine to J. Jump just a few minutes ago. I'm trying to determine if John is doing what we do when we preach. Is this not the same terminology and approach you take in preaching. We include ourselves even though we have already confessed we are sinners full of sin when we confess His name for we wish to associate ourselves with them.

If not, then the only alternative I can find is the Jew must repent, confessing their sins and be baptized for they broke covenant with God. I cannot find anywhere in His Word where those that never made covenant with God had to be saved as preached by Peter in Acts 2. We confess Jesus Christ, but Paul never says Christ told the Gentile to do this until the judgment seat of Christ. Today we confess to one another.

I'll appreciate your input also, with J. Jump, and any others. I don't know if you will agree or not, but we know James writes only to the Jew, and Peter also because they did shake hands with Paul to not preach to a Gentile. But John is a different story, and hard to figure out because he was allowed to tarry until after the death of Paul, and the destruction 70 A.D. of that Holy City.

 

[J. Jump]

Ituttut if you will go back and look at the Gospel of John the verb structure for the most part if not all of the verbs dealing with believe are in the present tense just like the I John verb tense is in v. 9.

John almost if not always talks about a present believing, which contextually is not speaking of eternal salvation, because that is a one-time event. Faith after initial salvation doesn't go away, but is just refocused on a different issue.

You say John will have his own kingdom and you will not. Both of which are incorrect in my opinion. John will have a part to play in Christ's kingdom. And probably a really big part. But so can you and I if we will endure, finish the race of the faith, confess our sins regularly, walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, die to self, love the bretheren, keep His commandments, etc.

If we are found faithful stewards then we will have a part in His coming kingdom. If we are found to be wicked/slothful servants then we will not.

Hope that helps.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Ituttut if you will go back and look at the Gospel of John the verb structure for the most part if not all of the verbs dealing with believe are in the present tense just like the I John verb tense is in v. 9.

John almost if not always talks about a present believing, which contextually is not speaking of eternal salvation, because that is a one-time event. Faith after initial salvation doesn't go away, but is just refocused on a different issue.

You say John will have his own kingdom and you will not. Both of which are incorrect in my opinion. John will have a part to play in Christ's kingdom. And probably a really big part. But so can you and I if we will endure, finish the race of the faith, confess our sins regularly, walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, die to self, love the bretheren, keep His commandments, etc.

If we are found faithful stewards then we will have a part in His coming kingdom. If we are found to be wicked/slothful servants then we will not.

Hope that helps.

You're right about John talking in the present tense about believing. A good example is the very familiar:

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

believeth [4100] pisteuo

5723 Tense - Present See 5774
Voice - Active See 5784
Mood - Participle See 5796
Count - 2549

A better translation for "believeth" is continues to believe, present tense and active voice.

Your wrong in saying that this has nothing to do with eternal salvation. You're saying that John 3:16 has nothing to do with eternal salvation!?!!! That's an incredible statement for a Christian to make. It has EVERYTHING to do with eternal salvation and the tense of the veb tells us that salvation is contingent on our "continuing to believe."

Salvation is NOT a one-time event. It's a continuing walk with the Savior. It's abiding in Him.

 

[J. Jump]

A better translation for "believeth" is continues to believe, present tense and active voice.

Your wrong in saying that this has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

I agree with the first part. Your second statement is absolutely false because of context. John 3:16 is not speaking of eternal salvation for a couple of reasons. The first reason is context and context always wins. But the second reason is that if it was speaking of eternal salvation it would contradict other Scripture that speaks of salvation and other Scripture that speaks to security.

You can not hold that John 3:16 speaks directly to eternal salvation and hold the idea that one can not lose their salvation. If salvation is contigent on me believing then when I stop believing I lose salvation. That's not what the Bible teaches.

Eternal salvation is not based on what I do, but based on what Christ has done for me and nothing else. If anything else comes into play (example - me having to continue to believe) then salvation is based on my works and not Christ's works.

Salvation is NOT a one-time event.

The Bible says it is, so I'll stick with the Bible.

It's a continuing walk with the Savior. It's abiding in Him.

That's works based salvation and the Bible specifically teaches against it.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I agree with the first part. Your second statement is absolutely false because of context. John 3:16 is not speaking of eternal salvation for a couple of reasons. The first reason is context and context always wins. But the second reason is that if it was speaking of eternal salvation it would contradict other Scripture that speaks of salvation and other Scripture that speaks to security.

You can not hold that John 3:16 speaks directly to eternal salvation and hold the idea that one can not lose their salvation. If salvation is contigent on me believing then when I stop believing I lose salvation. That's not what the Bible teaches.

Eternal salvation is not based on what I do, but based on what Christ has done for me and nothing else. If anything else comes into play (example - me having to continue to believe) then salvation is based on my works and not Christ's works.



The Bible says it is, so I'll stick with the Bible.



That's works based salvation and the Bible specifically teaches against it.

I'll go with John 3:16 for my salvation. I agree with you in that you can't accept John 3:16 and also believe that a Christian cannot lose their salvation. Let's take a poll on this board to determine how many people reject the message of John 3:16. Of couse that's really irrelevant to me. I intend to be among the few who follow the "straight and narrow." This is NOT works based salvation. Salvation is by grace through accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior and repenting of your sins (being born again). It's about the responsibilities of the Christian life.

Jesus ALWAYS said "Come and follow Me." He also said that we must pick up our crosses and follow Him. Do you really believe that that was only true in His time on earth, that it doesn't apply to us today? If you do you're SADLY and ETERNALLY wrong.

 

[J. Jump]

I'll go with John 3:16 for my salvation.

Better hope you die or Jesus raptures the church before you stop believing then!

also believe that a Christian cannot lose their salvation.

So you say you believe a Christian can lose something they never did anything to get. Sorry the Bible doesn't teach that.

This is NOT works based salvation. Salvation is by grace through accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior and repenting of your sins (being born again). It's about the responsibilities of the Christian life.

What you have just described is a works based salvation. You can say that you don't believe in it, but you are in direct contradiction to the plain teaching of Scripture.

Responsibilities of the Christian life is continuing to follow Jesus. That is a work no matter how you try to twist it.

Jesus ALWAYS said "Come and follow Me." He also said that we must pick up our crosses and follow Him. Do you really believe that that was only true in His time on earth, that it doesn't apply to us today? If you do you're SADLY and ETERNALLY wrong.

Follow, pick up our cross . . . those are things you do, and eternal salvation is not based on what you do, but on what Jesus did for you.

As to the other part of whether I believe Jesus and what He preached. Unfortunately you and millions of others down throughout history have missed the mark on what Jesus taught.

Jesus did not come preaching eternal salvaiton He preached the same message that John the Baptist was preaching and that was the kingdom. Matthew states it literally as the kingdom of the heavens (that phrase is also found in the oldest manuscript of John's Gospel in chapter 3) and others describe it as the kingdom of God. They are the same thing, but unfortunately the church has tied the kingdom of the heavens and the kingdom of God to eternal salvation.

Those are not the same message and if we would learn to keep things in context the Bible would make a lot more sense and we could get back to true Biblical meaning instead of having so many different ideas and interpretations, including the simple message of salvation by grace through faith - plus nothing else!

 

[Hope of Glory]

I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

A good eye Hope of Glory. See mine to J. Jump just a few minutes ago. I'm trying to determine if John is doing what we do when we preach. Is this not the same terminology and approach you take in preaching. We include ourselves even though we have already confessed we are sinners full of sin when we confess His name for we wish to associate ourselves with them.

I don't do that when I preach, unless it directly includes me. One thing that I was taught by one of my teachers is to always use the second person to directly include or confront the person to whom I'm preaching. (This is especially true if I am preaching the message of salvation, but there are other things that do not include me in the lesson. "All you have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.")

Now, I ignore my teacher when it's something that does include me, such as teaching on things that the Bible teaches us are necessary for obedience and to obtain rewards, etc. Those things, I include myself. ("If we let the Spirit lead us...")

"We" have to continually confess our sins. That's the context in 1 John.

Remember, there is more than one aspect to a sacrifice. There is the killing of the sacrifice, and there is the blood. (There's more, but that's all I'm looking at at this moment.) Jesus died for all, but his blood was shed for many. He died that all might be saved, but his blood was shed for the remission of sins for the many.

 

[Gershom]

Since we are discussing sins that a Christian can commit, and as I had read a few posts that state Christians cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit, I got to wondering -- We've been round and round with the issue of speaking with other tongues. If I remember correctly, in the past on this board, an accusation from one poster to another (who had spoken with other tongues) was that it (the tongues of the said poster) was a work of the devil.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Marcia]

Since we are discussing sins that a Christian can commit, and as I had read a few posts that state Christians cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit, I got to wondering -- We've been round and round with the issue of speaking with other tongues. If I remember correctly, in the past on this board, an accusation from one poster to another (who had spoken with other tongues) was that it (the tongues of the said poster) was a work of the devil.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

I don't think so, because in context of the relevant passage about the blasphemy of the HS, it seems that attributing the devil's work to the miracles of Jesus was in view.

 

[DHK]

Your wrong in saying that this has nothing to do with eternal salvation. You're saying that John 3:16 has nothing to do with eternal salvation!?!!! That's an incredible statement for a Christian to make. It has EVERYTHING to do with eternal salvation and the tense of the veb tells us that salvation is contingent on our "continuing to believe."

Salvation is NOT a one-time event. It's a continuing walk with the Savior. It's abiding in Him.

Salvation is a one-time event. Don't hang all your doctrine on your interpretation of just one verse of the Bible. Take all the Bible into account.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This does not say "are you being saved continually." It is past tense referring to a one-time event in the history of the believer. Ye are saved through faith. And so they were.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

They were dead in their sin. Now they are alive. The reason--they were made alive because the Holy Spirit came to dwell within at the point of salvation when they trusted Christ as their Saviour.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

The grace of God is wonderful. Accept it by faith. At that time the gift of God is given. The gift of God is eternal through Jesus Christ our Saviour. See also Rom.6:23.
DHK

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut if you will go back and look at the Gospel of John the verb structure for the most part if not all of the verbs dealing with believe are in the present tense just like the I John verb tense is in v. 9.

John almost if not always talks about a present believing, which contextually is not speaking of eternal salvation, because that is a one-time event. Faith after initial salvation doesn't go away, but is just refocused on a different issue.

You say John will have his own kingdom and you will not. Both of which are incorrect in my opinion. John will have a part to play in Christ's kingdom. And probably a really big part. But so can you and I if we will endure, finish the race of the faith, confess our sins regularly, walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, die to self, love the bretheren, keep His commandments, etc.

If we are found faithful stewards then we will have a part in His coming kingdom. If we are found to be wicked/slothful servants then we will not.

Hope that helps.

Thanks again J.J for your help and concern for me, but to be honest it seems you are saying what I am saying. Present tense means Now, just as our salvation happens in the Now when we first believe, and not in the morrow again, again, and again. What happened to the power of His blood, for the life is in His blood? Do we die when we sin? Again, and again was what was required of the believer that was covered with "animal blood".

I know I may sound dogmatic at times, but was Jesus, Peter or Paul? Truth is not being dogmatic but repeating His Word.

Perhaps scripture will help you see the difference in "kingdom of Christ", and in the "Body of Christ". It helps to understand salvation through faith is unknown until after Damascus Road. Body of Christ is unknown until after Damascus Road. Rapture is unknown until after Damascus Road. If these three revelations Christ revealed to Paul are true, then we will know we Gentiles can enter into the "inner court" of the Temple, which before was forbidden us. I believe if we endeavor to hold on to part of the Jewish religion of the "great commission", which is the "kingdom of heaven" (Gentile's could only come as proselytes), we will not be allowed into the "inner court" with access to Christ in the Holy of Holies. If He is in the Holy of Holies, that is where we are for we are in His Body, and the Apostles are in their "kingdom" given by Him.

For understanding we must "correctly divide His truth", II Timothy 2:15, which Peter says is difficult to do in II Peter 3:15-16.

First, Jesus said He came only for His own, so I know the promises are not to me, but if I become as the Jew in "circumcision" we can be associated with His people, and reap certain benefits, but not all. We will serve the Jew, while the Jew serves their God.

Second, Jesus says in Luke 16:16, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." So we see something has changed, and must acknowledge this fact that Elias has come (John the Baptist) and now the message, or gospel preached is for Israel to "repent and be baptized for remission of their sins" for the "kingdom of heaven is at hand". And we are to take notice that this same message is preached in Acts 2:38 to the Jew. This same message would have been preached to the whole world, if the nation of Israel had accepted Messiah. It did not happen, and John the Baptist, Jesus or any of His earthly Apostles never preached this gospel to or at a Gentile.

Third, Jesus informs all to take notice of how He will reward His "little flock". Luke 22:28-30, "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30. That ye may eat and drink at my table inmy kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." So here I must kindly disagree with your thoughts above of "incorrect in my opinion" as to "their" kingdom.

Fourth, we find in Acts that Israel is cut-off at the stoning of Steven,as Jesus said in the parable of the fig tree. The death of Stephen one year after Pentecost blinded His nation Israel. These " stiff-necked" idol worshipping people had broken their "covenant" with God the Father, refused Messiah, and then their High Priest after He shed His blood for them, and now they had refused the Holy Ghost. The nation had committed the unpardonable sin. They rebelled and refused their GOD.

But we are to remember He has not forgotten His people, and woe to any that do persecute or hate the Jew for who they are, before He again deals with them as His nation.

Fifth we now come to the purpose of God. It begins on Damascus Road in Acts 9. Scripture says Christ from heaven revealed to Paul the Gospel of Grace Through Faith, without works. All things are now New. God is reconciling the whole world unto Himself.

II Corinthians 5:16-21, "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." I believe if He was made sin for us, and took my sins upon Himself at the Cross, then when I confess Him as my Lord Jesus Christ, He didn't hand me back any of my sins so I can keep on confessing Him as my Lord Jesus Christ every time I think I may have sinned.

I hope you may be able to see that I am saved through His faith, into His Body, and I look for the Rapture before His "kingdom comes to this earth", and the Apostles are in "their" kingdom on "their thrones" judging "their People"(Matthew 19:28), and the Gentile's will grab hold of the Jew and say give us entrance "…for we have heard that God is with you" (Zechariah 8:23).

 

[Hope of Glory]

Why would you think that I think that Matt 7.22 is talking about saved people? I do think it's about unsaved people -- clearly people who think they are saved or act like it externally. They may even be able to perform signs, as the passage indicates.

In Matthew 7:22, they called him "Lord". He never denied that the works they did were what they said, but he did say they were working iniquity. (Remember, Saul was going to make great sacrifices unto the Lord, but the Lord wants obedience; obedience is better than sacrifice.) 1 Corinthians tells us that no one can call him Lord, except by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now, you yourself said that no one can deny him being Lord and be saved, surely you see that the Bible says that no one can call him Lord and be unsaved. Now, I disagree with your opinion that a saved person cannot deny him, as we are warned about that all through the NT, but it's stated plainly that none can call him Lord without the Holy Spirit.

 

[J. Jump]

Ituttut it was very difficult to follow your post, but I'm going to try to respond if possible.

Present tense means Now, just as our salvation happens in the Now when we first believe, and not in the morrow again, again, and again.

Right...however that doesn't mean that we will not sin anymore. And when we sin we need to be cleansed by the washing of His blood, not because we are dead, but because we have become partially dirty. You can see this truth in the footwasing ceremony. It was just the same as the priests had one ceremonial cleansing, but they had to wash their hands and feet periodically because they became dirty.

Perhaps scripture will help you see the difference in "kingdom of Christ", and in the "Body of Christ".

If you recognize the difference between the two then you are off to a good start. Most do not see the distinction.

It helps to understand salvation through faith is unknown until after Damascus Road. Body of Christ is unknown until after Damascus Road. Rapture is unknown until after Damascus Road.

These truths were definitely given prior to the Damascas Road conversion of Paul. Now granted they were hidden from complete understanding, but they were given nonetheless. There is nothing in the NT that can not be seen in type/shadow in the OT.

Everyone throughout human history and anyone that ever will be saved will do so by grace through faith. It is the faith part that has differed from point to point. Faith is believing what God has said about a matter. For Abraham it was believing the promise that God was going to make his descendants number more than the stars and the sand. For the nation of Israel in Egypt it was killing the lamb and spreading the blood. After that it became the blood of animals pointing to the blood of the Lamb. For me it was believing in Christ's subsitutional death and shed blood on the cross.

First, Jesus said He came only for His own, so I know the promises are not to me, but if I become as the Jew in "circumcision" we can be associated with His people, and reap certain benefits, but not all. We will serve the Jew, while the Jew serves their God.

Jesus did come for His own. And the message they rejected was the message of the kingdom not the message of eternal salvation. That message is now being delivered to Gentiles. But in order for the Gentiles to be able to accept or reject that message they can't be a Gentile, because the Bible says the Gentiles have no God. So Paul learned how the Gentiles were going to fit into the plan of the kingdom and that was by accepting the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on the cross. That would make them alive spiritually, so they could even understand this spiritual message. Once a person becomes a Christian they are able to accept the Truths of the kingdom or they can reject them as Israel did.

We do not become connected with Israel. When we are saved we become part of the one new man in Christ that is neither Jew nor Greek. That's how a Jew can still participate in this offer, they have to lose their national identity, because the offer was taken away from the Jews. So we become a one new man in Christ so that the offer is still not open to the Jews, but we are still descendants of Abraham fulfilling the promise to him, but we are connected to him through Christ.

of His earthly Apostles never preached this gospel to or at a Gentile.

Incorrect. That was Paul's entire ministry. He preached this exact message to the Gentiles. That's why so many Jews had a hard time with Paul's ministry, because he was taken a message that was meant for them and giving it to the dogs.

So here I must kindly disagree with your thoughts above of "incorrect in my opinion" as to "their" kingdom.

You lost me there. I'm not sure what you even mean.

God is reconciling the whole world unto Himself.

I agree with that, but Paul learned much more than the message of salvation by grace through faith.

His "kingdom comes to this earth", and the Apostles are in "their" kingdom on "their thrones" judging "their People"(Matthew 19:28),

Couple of things. Jesus' kingdom will come to this earth, but that's not where the bride of Christ will be participating in the kingdom. If we are found worthy to be a part of the bride we will be ruling and reigning from the heavens where Satan and his angels are currently ruling from. Israel will be at the head of the nations on the earth ruling with Christ from the throne of David.

There are two aspects to the kingdom of Christ. Abraham was to have an earthly seed and a spiritual seed.

The offer of the earthly kingdom had already been promised to Israel. That will be fulfilled one day. What John the Baptist, Christ and the apostles were delivering was the offer to the heavenly (spiritual) part of the kingdom. That's why Matthew's Gospel actual is literally the kingdom of the heavens. It's plural because it is talking about the spiritual realm where Satan is currently ruling known as the heavens.

The 12 apostles are not in "their" kingdom yet as that is still future.

They will be part of the heavenly kingdom, but they will be ruling over Israel, while the bride of Christ will be ruling over the Gentile nations.

and the Gentile's will grab hold of the Jew and say give us entrance "…for we have heard that God is with you" (Zechariah 8:23).

This is a future fulfillment. It has not happened, but will happen one day.

 

[ituttut]

Originally Posted by Hope of Glory in answer to ituttut
I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

A good eye Hope of Glory. See mine to J. Jump just a few minutes ago. I'm trying to determine if John is doing what we do when we preach. Is this not the same inology and approach you take in preaching. We include ourselves even though we have already confessed we are sinners full of sin when we confess His name for we wish to associate ourselves with them. [/quote]

Hope of Glory: I don't do that when I preach, unless it directly includes me. One thing that I was taught by one of my teachers is to always use the second person to directly include or confront the person to whom I'm preaching. (This is especially true if I am preaching the message of salvation, but there are other things that do not include me in the lesson. "All you have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.")

Thank you Hope of Glory. Great insight to the gospel of Paul given him by Christ Jesus from heaven of just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Kind of says it all. This is the gospel of the Grace of God's "gift" to all today Through the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are sealed, and it is everlasting at the time of our salvation for we are made righteous in Christ, in who is no unrighteousness.

However we see in the time of the Apostles the writer of Hebrews address' those of Israel personally. They are not "sealed in" as those in the Body of Christ, for as shown in chapter 10:26 if they sin willfully after they receive the knowledge of the truth (my input in here - they received the Holy Ghost of Pentecost.), there remained no more sacrifice for sins. We see this in the couple, Ananias and Sapphira that had received the knowledge of the Holy Ghost. Theirs was not "unconditional" salvation, but "conditional" for they made covenant with God, and was saved under that economy.

Hope of Glory: Now, I ignore my teacher when it's something that does include me, such as teaching on things that the Bible teaches us are necessary for obedience and to obtain rewards, etc. Those things, I include myself. ("If we let the Spirit lead us...")

"We" have to continually confess our sins. That's the context in 1 John.

Then so be it in that reading of the text for those of the "kingdom to come" for the Jew (John) was saved under covenant and still under the Law, and they were "conditionally saved". Can you find where those that God never asked to make covenant with Him were to "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins" confessing their sins of breaking the "covenant" He never asked them to join? Are we today to clamor and say "let us in"? Is this not Catholic thinking? If we believe this then we had better be re-baptized, repenting of our every sin and be "water baptized for the remission of our sins" for that is of salvation of the Jew.

Remember, there is more than one aspect to a sacrifice. There is the killing of the sacrifice, and there is the blood. (There's more, but that's all I'm looking at at this moment.) Jesus died for all, but his blood was shed for many. He died that all might be saved, but his blood was shed for the remission of sins for the many.

Amen! I believe this with all of my heart. And I believe scripture tells us how the many of some are saved (as they live), and the many of others are saved (as they live), and it is all of God's Grace, but some are saved by faith, and some are saved through faith . Acts 13:42-43, "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."
From the above, and other scripture certainly indicates Paul is correct in saying there are those saved by the Grace of God, some by faith, and some through faith. It looks to me more and more that we have thirteen (13) books written to us today, they being from Romans through Philemon.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Ah, but they are all applicable to us today. The OT was given to us as types for our admonition. Even Matthew, which was written to the Jew has become ours.

Matthew is the gospel of the kingdom. Matthew doesn’t waste time introducing the King. The wise men in chapter two show up and ask, “Where is he that is born King of the Jews?” Matthew tells of the kingdom of Israel, as a nation to whom the Kingdom was offered.

John showed up at the Jordan and claimed in no uncertain terms, “Repent for the Kingdom of the Heavens is at hand”. The king was at hand; therefore the Kingdom was at hand. “Repent for the Kingdom of the Heavens is at hand.”
Matthew was written for the Jews. To them was offered the Kingdom of the Heavens. John and then the Lord came along, and after his baptism began to proclaim the Kingdom. He sent out the 12 only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel [not unsaved sheep, lost sheep; they had strayed]. How about the 70? They were sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Into the way of Gentiles and Samaritans, don’t go; those were their instructions.

So, many people say, this doesn’t apply to us. It’s written to the Jews. They say that the Sermon on the Mount constitutes the laws that will prevail in the coming Kingdom, and has nothing to do with us now. They don’t know that this 43rd verse in Matthew 21 is even in the Bible, and much less that it’s in the gospel of Matthew.

[Matthew 21:43: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. ] The Kingdom of God is equated with the vineyard that is being talked about in this passage. It’s the place where the work is done; where the fruit is borne. That’s where the king is reigning in power and glory. The vineyard. Now, I’m going to take it away from you…

The Kingdom of God is God’s rule over everything. Everything was created, except for God, and he rules over all of it. That’s not what he’s taking away. What he’s taking away is the offer of their part made to them as a nation.

Some equate the kingdom covenanted to David with the Kingdom of God, but the kingdom covenanted to David is an earthly kingdom and will be peopled and governed by earthly people in their bodies of flesh, blood, and bones. Only the church have the resurrected bodies; only they have bodies like the Lord Jesus Christ.

Through faith, you can become a child of God, and through faithful living you can attain an entrance into the Kingdom of the Heavens. A higher position that the earthly kingdom.

The Jew is presented as carnal and worldly and not interested in ruling from the heavens, but in ruling here on earth. They rejected the idea of the Kingdom of the Heavens. They wouldn’t have anything to do with it. It’s kind of like people today when they talk about the pie in the sky; they weren’t interested in something like that; they wanted something concrete; they wanted to rule on the earth where they could plant their feet; they wanted David to come back and rule from his throne there in Jerusalem. They weren’t interested at all in the Kingdom in which the Lord Jesus Christ would be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and in which the Christians who were faithful and bore fruit in their flesh would get to rule and reign with him. They weren’t interested in it; they rejected it.

The Jew still is not interested. Primarily, because for a Jew to enter in, he has to surrender his identity and become a Christian. Sometimes, we talk about a saved Jew, but a saved Jew is like a saved Gentile. There are three groups of people designated in the Bible: The Jew, the Gentile, and the Church. When a Gentile believes on the Lord Jesus, he becomes a Christian. When a Jew believes on the Lord Jesus, he becomes what? A Christian. No longer Jew or Gentile, but Christians. Do you go around calling yourself a saved Gentile?

The Lord says, I’m going to take that away from you Jews. He did take it. He withdrew his offer of the Kingdom of the Heavens from Israel. He set them aside as a nation. “Now, I’m going to give it to the Gentiles or the nations that bring forth the fruit thereof.”

Here’s the interesting thing in connection with this: this coming Kingdom, in which Christians can participate is dependent upon bringing forth fruit. Works. A fruitful Christian.

 

[canadyjd]

In Matthew 7:22, they called him "Lord". He never denied that the works they did were what they said, but he did say they were working iniquity. (Remember, Saul was going to make great sacrifices unto the Lord, but the Lord wants obedience; obedience is better than sacrifice.) 1 Corinthians tells us that no one can call him Lord, except by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now, you yourself said that no one can deny him being Lord and be saved, surely you see that the Bible says that no one can call him Lord and be unsaved. Now, I disagree with your opinion that a saved person cannot deny him, as we are warned about that all through the NT, but it's stated plainly that none can call him Lord without the Holy Spirit.

The Matthew 7 verse is clearly speaking of unbelievers, Jesus says "I never knew you". Salvation is certainly a restoration of the relationship between God and man. If Jesus never knew them (as a "Lord" would know those who follow Him) then they were never saved.

I Cor. 12:3 is not saying people cannot mouth the words "Jesus is Lord", it is saying that someone cannot make a genuine profession of faith "except by the Spirit". The whole purpose of Chap.12-14 or so is to demonstrate their experiences with "tongues" and other gifts were in no way superior to those Christians that did not practice such things. Other Christians were just as legitimately saved as those who practiced "tongues", because it is Holy Spirit that is the source of all true professions of faith. The focus is on Holy Spirit being the cause of all salvation that comes to men.

peace to youraise:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Bible teaches us in Philippians 2 that, 'every knee will bow..., and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.'

When man stands before Him in Matthew 7, it is one who has passed from this mortal coil. Those people are not calling Him 'Lord' out of true reverence, but rather they are admitting that they were wrong, realizing that He indeed is King of kings and Lord of lords.

Their profession that they 'prophesied in Thy name, and cast out devils in Thy name, and in Thy name have done many wonderful works,' is nothing but lies. These people as canadyj has pointed out, were 'never saved.'

Jesus said satan cannot cast out satan, so their saying they cast out devils had to be a lie; a last ditch effort hoping that Jesus would accept them into His kingdom. But He affirms the fact they were never saved by stating, 'I never knew you.'

 

[Hope of Glory]

I Cor. 12:3 is not saying people cannot mouth the words "Jesus is Lord"

There seem to be some people who think that you cannot utter words denying Jesus is Lord and be saved. So, which one is it? Are uttering words one thing?

Besides, in the Matthew 7 verse, I wonder why Jesus didn't condemn their actions, if they did not do it in his name, but claim to do so?

Seems we've got a conundrum here.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Better hope you die or Jesus raptures the church before you stop believing then!



So you say you believe a Christian can lose something they never did anything to get. Sorry the Bible doesn't teach that.



What you have just described is a works based salvation. You can say that you don't believe in it, but you are in direct contradiction to the plain teaching of Scripture.

Responsibilities of the Christian life is continuing to follow Jesus. That is a work no matter how you try to twist it.



Follow, pick up our cross . . . those are things you do, and eternal salvation is not based on what you do, but on what Jesus did for you.

As to the other part of whether I believe Jesus and what He preached. Unfortunately you and millions of others down throughout history have missed the mark on what Jesus taught.

Jesus did not come preaching eternal salvaiton He preached the same message that John the Baptist was preaching and that was the kingdom. Matthew states it literally as the kingdom of the heavens (that phrase is also found in the oldest manuscript of John's Gospel in chapter 3) and others describe it as the kingdom of God. They are the same thing, but unfortunately the church has tied the kingdom of the heavens and the kingdom of God to eternal salvation.

Those are not the same message and if we would learn to keep things in context the Bible would make a lot more sense and we could get back to true Biblical meaning instead of having so many different ideas and interpretations, including the simple message of salvation by grace through faith - plus nothing else!

So you reject the words of Jesus?

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut it was very difficult to follow your post, but I'm going to try to respond if possible.

Ituttut it was very difficult to follow your post, but I'm going to try to respond if possible.


Response: Thanks for your gracious reply. It may help if you know I am a "dispensationalist" Baptist, believing the "dispensational" gospel of Paul - Ephesians 3:1-2 and on, "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward". If by difficult to follow falls into the category of better explaining my belief, I too wish I was able to do so. End Response.

Present tense means Now, just as our salvation happens in the Now when we first believe, and not in the morrow again, again, and again.

Right...however that doesn't mean that we will not sin anymore. And when we sin we need to be cleansed by the washing of His blood, not because we are dead, but because we have become partially dirty. You can see this truth in the footwasing ceremony. It was just the same as the priests had one ceremonial cleansing, but they had to wash their hands and feet periodically because they became dirty.


Response: I believe you may be speaking of the physical, and those under Law, while I am speaking spiritually. Romans 7:25 then 8:1-2 all said in one setting, "25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin'; to 1 then 2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."We are complete in Him and we have peace in our full salvation in this completeness. Our body did not die to the Law, but Jesus Christ's did, and we being now married to Him have become dead to the Law. Can sin be brought into His Body? We are made righteous in Him. End Response.

Perhaps scripture will help you see the difference in "kingdom of Christ", and in the "Body of Christ".

If you recognize the difference between the two then you are off to a good start. Most do not see the distinction.

It helps to understand salvation through faith is unknown until after Damascus Road. Body of Christ is unknown until after Damascus Road. Rapture is unknown until after Damascus Road.

These truths were definitely given prior to the Damascas Road conversion of Paul. Now granted they were hidden from complete understanding, but they were given nonetheless. There is nothing in the NT that can not be seen in type/shadow in the OT.


Response: We can now see "types and shadows", but not until Paul in some things. I'm a little surprised that you claim all things would have been known, for they were shown. If we don't believe God had hidden from the beginning what He didn't want known until after Damascus Road, I don't think it is proper to quote Paul, for we knew all of this "stuff" before God revealed it. With out Paul we have only One room in the Temple, the Holy Room. The preaching of the earthly Apostle's cannot get any Gentile into the Holy of Holies.

God either revealed all things in the OT (Jesus lived in OT times), or He didn't. I believe Christ did really speak personally to Paul on Damascus Road, and afterwards, revealing His dispensational gospel to Paul, which was unknown until He taught Paul - Galatians 1:11-12. End Response.


Everyone throughout human history and anyone that ever will be saved will do so by grace through faith. It is the faith part that has differed from point to point. Faith is believing what God has said about a matter. For Abraham it was believing the promise that God was going to make his descendants number more than the stars and the sand. For the nation of Israel in Egypt it was killing the lamb and spreading the blood. After that it became the blood of animals pointing to the blood of the Lamb. For me it was believing in Christ's subsitutional death and shed blood on the cross.


Response: Amen! Where did you find this information to tell you it was possible for you today to come to the Cross for forgiveness of all of your sins, just by believing on His name for your salvation? Wasn't it after Damascus Road? Who told you it was possible for you to be in the Body of Christ, being part of His inheritance? Who told you it is possible for you to be raptured before God comes to deal with His people in His Wrath? End Response

First, Jesus said He came only for His own, so I know the promises are not to me, but if I become as the Jew in "circumcision" we can be associated with His people, and reap certain benefits, but not all. We will serve the Jew, while the Jew serves their God.

Jesus did come for His own. And the message they rejected was the message of the kingdom not the message of eternal salvation. That message is now being delivered to Gentiles. But in order for the Gentiles to be able to accept or reject that message they can't be a Gentile, because the Bible says the Gentiles have no God. So Paul learned how the Gentiles were going to fit into the plan of the kingdom and that was by accepting the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on the cross. That would make them alive spiritually, so they could even understand this spiritual message. Once a person becomes a Christian they are able to accept the Truths of the kingdom or they can reject them as Israel did.


Response: The nation rejected God in total, the Holy Trinity, with the stoning of Stephen.
Christian friend do you notice that you are rejecting that it is Christ Jesus from heaven that gave wisdom and knowledge not before known. If you don't believe Paul, please try to believe Peter - "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction," II Peter 3:15-16.

However you wish to word it, you must accept that Christ gave to Paul another gospel to preach to all the world. If you believe the Bible, and not the word of man, you will have to accept the fact that Jesus said until John the Baptist was the Law and Prophets that the Jew was to live. With John came His gospel to the Jew only to "repent confessing their sins, and be baptized for the remission of their sins". This is not the Christian gospel of Christ Jesus from Heaven.

Notice the headquarters of the Christian church is in Antioch, not Jerusalem, and it became so only after Paul was brought to that City. Paul started the Christian faith for the Pentecostal church had no "gospel for the Gentile.". Paul was the only one that had the authority to preach the "dispensational" gospel to both Gentile and Jew, for Christ only revealed His Gospel to Paul.

To continue account too long for program