What Sins Are Christians Capable Of?

[J. Jump]

Ituttut I don't want to quote some of your last post, because we are starting to get rather lengthy. I completely agree with you that the kingdom message was still preached to a segment of the Jews (probably the majority of the Jews) even while Paul preached salvation by grace through faith and then he even preached the kingdom message to the Gentiles.

Where we differ here is that you say the apostles more than likely never preached salvation by grace through faith, but I find that highly unlikely, becuase there was a generation of Jews that began where God no longer recognized the blood of animals, but they had to come through the blood of Jesus just like the Gentiles. That is true of Jews today. They will not be saved by sacrifices any longer. ALL people must come through the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

At some point the reoffer of the kingdom was officially taken away from the nation of Israel and it is right around the time you are speaking of 67 AD or so.

But as you said John live well past that as so it seems nearly impossible that he did not preach salvation by grace through faith to the Jews.

The final thing I guess I would say on this matter is what does it matter

but I see you can prove nothing by scripture or otherwise.

Okay now we're down to cheap shots, eh?

So tell me when did the marriage supper of the Lamb take place?

The marriage supper of the Lamb is a future event, because His bride is not complete yet. You are in fact misunderstanding Scripture because you say that when we are saved and become a part of His body that is when the marriage takes place, but that is an incorrect view.

That is an incorrect view for a couple of reasons. There would have to be a great number of wedding feasts if each person indvidually was married to the Lamb. And then you would have unfaithful Christians married to the Lamb, which is not going to happen.

You can see this picture in the OT of the story of Isaac and Rebekah that the marriage does not take place until after the rapture. You can also see this picture in the story of Ruth and you can see that the marriage doesn't take place until after the judgment seat of Christ.

You can also see in Revelation that the marriage doesn't take place until after the rapture and after the judgement seat of Christ.

I Corinthians 12:27, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

This says we are the body of Christ not the bride of Christ. And yes I completely agree that we "church" are the body of Christ. We are His body and will become His bride at a later time (although that time is coming soon!)

That should be enough Scripture or do you need specific references?

Scripture please for we that are One with Him, in His Body. He is my Lord, and He is the King of the Jews, higher than all other Kings. He has made kings and priests of His people, and there will be other kings that will bring their glory and honor.

Yes check out the story of Saul and David. He will return as King of kings and Lord of lords because he will have kings and lords under Him that will help Him rule the earth from the heavens where Satan and his angels are currently reigning (again reference the story of Saul/David). Those kings and lords will be faithful, overcoming Christians.

Then as you say He will at some point in the future make kings and lords of His brother Israel to rule from the physical earth.

What many people fail to understand is there is two realms of rulership over the earth. There is a heavenly rulership (Daniel says the heavens do rule) and then there is an earthly rulership and these two realms are linked. All the nations, except Israel, are under the guidance from the heavens, while Israel is under the guidance of Michael, becuase Israel is not to be reckoned among the nations.

And it will be the same in the future. Christians will have no part in ruling over Israel. That will be left up to the disciples, but it's not their own kingdom, but under the kingdom of Christ.

Aren't we among those He inherits?

Let me quote the verse again.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Who is it that is inheriting in this verse? It is those people that have their eyes opened and turn from darkness to light and from the kingdom of Satan to God. These people receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance.

It says nothing about Christ inheriting these people, but these people inheriting something.

Colossians 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
Again I thought this was pretty straight forward. Paul is telling the Colossians that THEY will receive the reward of the inheritance. It doesn't say that Christ inherits the Colossians.

So I'm still not sure where you get that we are Christ's inheritance.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

As I have said many times before it doesn't matter what you believe. It doesn't matter what I believe. It doesn't matter what Joe Blow believes or his wife Sally Sue. The only thing that matters is what the Bible says.

So does the Bible require the acceptance of Christ as Lord for salvation? The answer to that question is no. The two things that God requires for the payment of sin is death and shed blood. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, died and shed His blood on the cross of Calvary and that satisfied God's requirements for payment of sin.

If you believe He did that on your behalf then you are saved. That is the gospel message of eternal salvation. Anything that is taken away or added to that simple message is outside of what Scripture has to say on the matter.



Once again the Bible says that the result of eternal salvation is a spirit that is made alive by the Holy Spirit. We are made a new creation neither Jew nor Gentile, but we are part of the one new man in Christ.

We are created unto good works that we SHOULD walk in them. Works are not a guarantee in a believers life. They SHOULD be, but they aren't a guarantee. That's what the Bible has to say about the matter.



It doesn't matter what I believe. What does the Bible say? If you believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God then you are saved no doubt about it end of discussion.



That's sad, because the Bible says otherwise.



Becoming a Christian is the easiest thing in the world. Why would you and others try to make such a simple message that even children are capable of understanding and try to complicate the matter?



Becoming saved and discipleship are two different matters and you can tell exactly why in the sentence that you just wrote. Eternal salvation is a free gift that is given to us by God. There are no costs involved and there are no strings attached.

Discipleship on the other hand is EXTREMELY costly. Jesus said we are to count the cost.

Believers in Jesus' time were His deciples, not just the 12 but hundreds of them. They, unlike you, did not consider Christianity to be "the easiest thing in the world." Here is what Paul said:

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

We're held to the same standard. We also must "press to the mark for the prize."

 

[J. Jump]

Believers in Jesus' time were His deciples, not just the 12 but hundreds of them.

I agree that Jesus had hundreds of disciples, probably thousands of disciples, but the Bible also says there were some folks that were believers that didn't follow Jesus out in the open.

I don't see how you could categorize these as disciples. Believers...yes, but disciples that is a pretty big stretch.

, unlike you, did not consider Christianity to be "the easiest thing in the world."

Now you are going the way of others and putting words into my mouth. I never said living the Christian life was the easiest thing to do. What I said was "becoming" a Christian is the easiest thing to do.

Walking in the Spirit, discipleship and the other forms that the Bible uses to describe living a victorious, overcoming life is very costly. I don't think it would be hard if we would die to self, because Jesus said His yolk and burden are light. The difficulty is in dying to self. We try to live the victorious life within ourselves and them become frustrated because we can't succeed.

But becoming a Christian and living a victorious Christian life are two totally separate things!

We're held to the same standard. We also must "press to the mark for the prize."

Amen and amen!! But in order for one to do that they must become saved, because pressing to the mark for the prize of the high calling of God doesn't have anything to do with eternal life, because eternal life isn't something you pursue or win, it is a gift you receive.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

As I have said many times before it doesn't matter what you believe. It doesn't matter what I believe. It doesn't matter what Joe Blow believes or his wife Sally Sue. The only thing that matters is what the Bible says.

So does the Bible require the acceptance of Christ as Lord for salvation? The answer to that question is no. The two things that God requires for the payment of sin is death and shed blood. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, died and shed His blood on the cross of Calvary and that satisfied God's requirements for payment of sin.

If you believe He did that on your behalf then you are saved. That is the gospel message of eternal salvation. Anything that is taken away or added to that simple message is outside of what Scripture has to say on the matter.

.

:Fish:
First you claim it doesn't matter what I believe. Then you say if I believe I will be saved. How inconsistent can you be? And this amazing claim that Jesus didn't come to preach eternal salvation but rather to show us how to enter the millenium, a very shakey concept with little Biblical support, is not only bizzare but heretical.

 

[J. Jump]

First you claim it doesn't matter what I believe. Then you say if I believe I will be saved.

See this is what people start to do when they can't face the music. They just start making things up. You have clearly taken my statement out of the context to make it prove your point.

I said what you believe, what I believe and what Joe Blow believes is irrelevant. It only matters what the Bibles says. Now obviously if what you believe lines up with Scripture then you are okay.

And what does the Scriptures say about eternal salvation? Believe and you will be saved.

How inconsistent can you be?

Really inconsistent if you TWIST my words!

And this amazing claim that Jesus didn't come to preach eternal salvation but rather to show us how to enter the millenium, a very shakey concept with little Biblical support, is not only bizzare but heretical.

Now talking about inconsistent. You say it has Biblical support and then you say it's heretical? How can something with Biblical support be heretical?

If something has a little Biblical support or a lot of Biblical support it can't be heretical.

Let's just let Scripture tell us what message He delievered.

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

If you will go to any interlinear Bible it will show you that every mention of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew heaven is actually plural not singular and there is a definite article in front of it, so the literal rendering should be the kingdom of the heavens.

Again this is not the message of eternal salvation. How do we know? Because Jesus said repent. If repentence is required for eternal salavtion then Jesus is contradicting Himself, because in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 and in Romans 4 and 5 faith/believe are the ONLY requirements for eternal salvation.

If repentance was a requirement why doesn't Ephesians read for it was by grace through faith and repentance that you have been saved. Or why doesn't Acts 16:31 read if you will believe and repent you will be saved.

Neither of them mention repentance, becuase it's not a requirement for eternal salvation. The only thing that is required is death and shed blood.

 

[Marcia]

Why would that be? We make analogies of people in the OT. What is so sacred about Peter that we can't draw an analogy from him?

You are ignoring the fact that believers now are indwelt by the HS whereas Peter at this moment was not. There was no constant indwelling of the HS until after Pentecost. Sure, some analogies can be made between OT and NT and maybe between apostles and today's believers, but some analogies are just not valid. This is one of them.

As far as using narrative for theology, it's just a basic biblical hermeneutic. If you don't see the problem with this, I'm not sure I can explain it. Narrative is narrative; it's not doctrine.

Jesus was talking to Satan? We do you get that? The conversation was between Jesus and Peter. Satan wasn't even in the picture until Jesus called Peter Satan.

Jesus said "Satan." Satan cannot be a human. Peter did not turn into Satan. If you think he did, or that he was possessed, this makes my point stronger in the first point above about making analogies between believers indwelt by the HS and Peter who apparently was possessed or turned into Satan, according to you.

So you don't think God cares when you sin, because everythings peaches and creme between you and God? Sorry again that's not the picture the Bible portrays. The Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. It is a fearful thing falling into the hands of the living God.

You are arguing illogically and using a false dichotomy here. I never said all was "peaches and cream" or implied it. But God loves us as his children and we are believers, part of God's family. When we sin, we are convicted and confess. All our sins are forgiven in Christ or else you must say his death was not sufficient.

Those were written to believers.Trust me when we are in a state of open rebellion things are not rosey between us and God. If we are not about doing His will then we are actively working against Him. If we are not for Him we are against Him. If we are not His friend then we are His enemy.

All I can say is that I feel sorry for anyone who has this view. I can't imagine living like this as a believer. None of us are actively doing God's will every moment! But this does not make us his enemy. Actually, scripture says that we have been reconciled!! Reconciliation means we are not enemies! Look up that word if you don't know it. Gal. 3.2,3 says that since we began in the spirit, we cannot finish by the flesh. Doing works by our flesh does not please God.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

As for Matt. 7....you said:

Then why isn't there a rebuke from Jesus regarding their lies? There was no rebuke, because they were telling the truth. They did those things, but it wasn't the will of the Father. We just have to let Scripture say what Scripture says

And this passage is clearly about unbelievers. How can Jesus say "I never knew you" to a believer???? You have not answered that although I've asked it at least 3 times.

 

[J. Jump]

You are ignoring the fact that believers now are indwelt by the HS whereas Peter at this moment was not.

No I'm not, you just aren't showing why it's relevant. You just are saying that we can't make that point because the Holy Spirit wasn't in the person. I'm sorry, but because Marcia says so just isn't good enough.

Sure, some analogies can be made between OT and NT and maybe between apostles and today's believers, but some analogies are just not valid. This is one of them.

Again says who? Says Marcia? What authority do you have to determine which ones can be used and which ones can't? See the problem with that approach. Who is the final authority on it? Jesus never said that we can't use narritives to obtain doctrine, just like some people say you can't get doctrine out of parables, but Jesus never said that either. So what human is the final authority on the matter and who gave them that authority?

As far as using narrative for theology, it's just a basic biblical hermeneutic. If you don't see the problem with this, I'm not sure I can explain it. Narrative is narrative; it's not doctrine.

Says who? Until you can show me where Jesus says that we can't use narratives to gain doctrine, then I will have issues with these statements.

II Timothy says quite different All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Jesus said "Satan." Satan cannot be a human. Peter did not turn into Satan.

Once again why put words in someone's mouth? I never said Peter turned into Satan. But Peter was busy doing Satan's works, because he was trying to keep Jesus from doing the Father's will. The point is he might as well have been Satan at that point, because he was trying to accomplish exactly what Satan was trying to accomplish, but it wasn't because he was Satan or because Satan indwelled him, but he was acting in the flesh and when we are acting in the flesh we are acting as the children of Satan not the children of God. (John 8:38-45)

You are arguing illogically and using a false dichotomy here. I never said all was "peaches and cream" or implied it. But God loves us as his children and we are believers, part of God's family. When we sin, we are convicted and confess. All our sins are forgiven in Christ or else you must say his death was not sufficient.

It's the implication that is there in your posts.

You say that when we sin we are convicted and confess as if this is a guaranteed process. However I John 1:9 would disagree with that assessment. I John says IF we confess our sins, showing that it's not a guarantee. The verb is subjunctive meaning it may or may not happen. If it was a guarantee then the Holy Spirit would have guided John to pen an imperitive verb.

And I John 1:9 contradicts your last statement as well. If ALL of our sins were dealt with on the cross there would be no reason to confess anymore. Why confess something that is already taken care of?

You can also see this picture in the footwashing ceremony.

Doing works by our flesh does not please God.

That's my whole point. If you are doing works of the flesh you are not a friend of God, but at odds with God. That's not hard to see.

How can Jesus say "I never knew you" to a believer?

Actually yes I have, you just don't seem to like my answer. He can say this to a believer, because that believer has not been doing the will of the Father and clearly shows that there will be some believers that have found to NEVER have been doing the Father's will. Check out the parable of the talents and pounds.

It is far from a sad thing to allow one's self to be shaped by the Bible instead of shaping the Bible to make them feel okay. The Bible says that we are to fear God if we want to start out on the right foot toward becoming wise. How can you fear God if you're okay and I'm okay and everyone that is saved is okay and everyone's going to go to heaven and have their little patch of paradise. There's nothing to fear in that scenario, but there's also not much wisdom that can be found in it either.

 

[Hope of Glory]

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Notice, it doesn't simply say that "some" or "most" scripture. There is some argument that it should be "every". But, either way, you can't just pick and choose.

JJump posted:

But Peter was busy doing Satan's works, because he was trying to keep Jesus from doing the Father's will.

And just think how often we do that today! When we're disobedient, and we know better, we quite often suffer for such. We know better, and yet we still do it, because it's too hard or it might make me uncomfortable or something else. I lost my favorite car once over being disobedient and not doing God's will.

You know, you can still be in the family and denied. If your children are talking out of turn, you chastize them. But, what about when they grow up and they start stealing cars or murdering people?

You can write them out of your will and you can even disown them, but guess what? They're still your children!

I did very well in hermeneutics classes. (OK, I did well in all my classes, except the guy that wanted the 17 steps to salvation.) But, I created a firestorm at the school because I used hermeneutics to "prove" both sides of the same issue. And I did so effectively!

Using the same book, I can prove to you both OSAS and that you can lose your salvation. But, using only the Scriptures, I can only prove OSAS.

Hermeneutics should be abandoned and we should simply use the Scriptures to prove themselves: Build line upon line and precept upon precept. Hermeneutics involve the wisdom of man instead of the wisdom of God in most cases.

 

[Soulman]

We are capable of commiting every sin an unsaved person can commit with the exception of blasphemy of the Holy spirit. We can sometimes get so back slidden that our flesh will rule as much as the unsaved.

What about willful sin? We can choose to sin as well as anybody. Is all sin willful? I don't think so. We are under the curse of sin and will sin like it or not. Although it seems like it is our choice, we are so corrupted that we will sin no matter what.

Wanna see a liar? Let someone on this board say they have made it one day with out sin.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

That sounds hauntingly like a teacher at a Bible college that I attended when I was younger. He gave a test once and wanted a list of the 17 steps to being saved.

The first requirement? The first requirement is the only requirement:

Believe (punctiliar) on the Lord Jesus and you will (certainty) be saved.



This is what should happen after one is saved, but it's no certainty. It's what is necessary for obedience, but obedience is not necessary to be saved.





Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

Yep, I believe exactly what it says.



Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

Too bad you don't believe the Scriptures.



Now, you're talking about discipleship instead of being saved. No wonder you don't believe the Scriptures about what it takes to be saved; you keep mixing messages.

Discipleship is hard. It might even require you to give your life.

Being saved costs you nothing, but it cost the Lord dearly.

We will either serve God or serve the world (remain in bondage to sin). Someone who is enslaved to sin is not a Christian.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

[Hope of Glory]

We will either serve God or serve the world (remain in bondage to sin). Someone who is enslaved to sin is not a Christian.

Before we go any further, I want to clarify something:

I am assuming that when you say "Christian", you are referring to anyone who is saved. That's what I'm responding to, but I could be mistaken.

"Christian" by definition means Christ-like, and that's why I generally use "saved" or "unsaved" to make that distinction, and use the subset of "Christian" for those of us who do exhibit such behavior.

Now, if you're saying that a saved person cannot be enslaved to sin, then you are in grave error, but you are correct if you are saying that someone who is Christ-like cannot be.

The verses you quoted is exactly what I'm talking about. Those saved people who are dead to self might (and they might not)...

 

[J. Jump]

that henceforth we should not serve sin.

StraightandNarrow you highlight the key part of the verse and then you post as if it doesn't even exist. The key is we SHOULD NOT serve sin, but that is not a guarantee. That's why the phrase "should not" is there instead of will not.

Again the bottom line is that saved individuals can choose to live for Christ or they can choose to live for self. And there are consequences for both.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I agree that Jesus had hundreds of disciples, probably thousands of disciples, but the Bible also says there were some folks that were believers that didn't follow Jesus out in the open.

I don't see how you could categorize these as disciples. Believers...yes, but disciples that is a pretty big stretch.



Now you are going the way of others and putting words into my mouth. I never said living the Christian life was the easiest thing to do. What I said was "becoming" a Christian is the easiest thing to do.

Walking in the Spirit, discipleship and the other forms that the Bible uses to describe living a victorious, overcoming life is very costly. I don't think it would be hard if we would die to self, because Jesus said His yolk and burden are light. The difficulty is in dying to self. We try to live the victorious life within ourselves and them become frustrated because we can't succeed.

But becoming a Christian and living a victorious Christian life are two totally separate things!



Amen and amen!! But in order for one to do that they must become saved, because pressing to the mark for the prize of the high calling of God doesn't have anything to do with eternal life, because eternal life isn't something you pursue or win, it is a gift you receive.

Why should you care if living a Christian life is the hardest thing in the world? It counts for nothing in your philosophy. In fact, it's a negative because it emphasizes the role of works in continued salvatrion. You can say that following Christ as Lord has nothing to do with salvation but Jesus says that it does. I chose to side with Him.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

But becoming a Christian and living a victorious Christian life are two totally separate things!

Not Biblical. Becoming a Christian and living a Christian life are one and the same.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

If a man is born again is he the same person? Does he still allow sin to be the master of his life? The answer is no. You want an "easy" salvation (your words). That is not what the Bible (and Jesus Christ) teach.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Narrow is the way. That describes a trip or process of achieving salvation. Not a simple one-time acceptance. THAT IS BIBLICAL.

 

[J. Jump]

Why should you care if living a Christian life is the hardest thing in the world? It counts for nothing in your philosophy. In fact, it's a negative because it emphasizes the role of works in continued salvatrion. You can say that following Christ as Lord has nothing to do with salvation but Jesus says that it does. I chose to side with Him.

StraightandNarrow you are becoming really good and cutting and pasting a quote of mine and then not only do you knot deal with what I say, but you totally make things up about me.

Why should I care if living a Christian life is the hardest thing in the world?

Well I do care, because the Bible says we are to care, so that's the most important thing. Jesus says count the cost before deciding to be a disciple.

It counts for nothing in your philosophy

What a load of nonsense. I have actually said quite the opposite. It is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL. But it's not a part of eternal salvation. But just because it is not a part of eternal salvation does not equate to no significance. It is absolutely vital if one wants to experience life in the coming age. It is critical if someone doesn't want to experience loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

So please quit making stuff up.

In fact, it's a negative because it emphasizes the role of works in continued salvatrion.

It's not a negative thing, because eternal salvation is not a continual process, it is a one-time event.

You can say that following Christ as Lord has nothing to do with salvation but Jesus says that it does.

Please show me where He states that and then show me how that corresponds with giving a gift. When is the last time you gave a person a gift and then expected something in return.

See how silly that is. That's not a gift that is wages. If you offer something to someone and then expect something in return that is not a gift. A gift is something that has no expectations tied to it, nor any strings attached.

Let's just deal with Scripture instead of making stuff up about people.

 

[Hope of Glory]

What must I do to be saved?

Believe on the Lord Jesus and continue following him, or you won't be saved.

Doesn't have the same ring as the truth, which is simply:

Believe

Plus nothing

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut I don't want to quote some of your last post, because we are starting to get rather lengthy.

Agree to length, but I may not follow, except on occasion for I need clarity, and it may benefit you also.

I completely agree with you that the kingdom message was still preached to a segment of the Jews (probably the majority of the Jews) even while Paul preached salvation by grace through faith and then he even preached the kingdom message to the Gentiles.

And I agree, but not to the prophesied "kingdom of God". We today are in the "kingdom of Christ" in His Body, and He is in heaven in the "kingdom of God". Paul preaches this "kingdom" to the Gentile, and the Jew, but not the "kingdom" promised Israel. This is the reason for Galatians 1:11-12. He didn't preach the gospel of John the Baptist, or the "great commission" to Gentile or Jew. He told the Jews, and the proselytes saved under the Pentecostal gospel to remain in their faith given by the Grace of God. Acts 13:39-43, " And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41. Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42. And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Where we differ here is that you say the apostles more than likely never preached salvation by grace through faith, but I find that highly unlikely, becuase there was a generation of Jews that began where God no longer recognized the blood of animals, but they had to come through the blood of Jesus just like the Gentiles. That is true of Jews today. They will not be saved by sacrifices any longer. ALL people must come through the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

Your last part first. I fully agree the Jew that is saved after Damascus Road, and the Gentile are saved (justified)"through" faith by the Grace of God by believing in the heart that Jesus Christ will save us, as this is the only name under heaven that can save.

But not those before that are saved under the old economy, Acts 13 above again, and will remain until the "last time". Then they will come "through faith" as seen in I Peter 1:5, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." This is what Peter is saying in Acts 15:11. It will happen for all before, and this proves Hebrews chapter 11 to be correct for all before are "by" faith.

At some point the reoffer of the kingdom was officially taken away from the nation of Israel and it is right around the time you are speaking of 67 AD or so.

But as you said John live well past that as so it seems nearly impossible that he did not preach salvation by grace through faith to the Jews.

It looks to me he was saved just as Moses, David, Peter and the rest, and will have to wait until the "last time", but what he wrote is to the Jew today. I do believe however as you say, he upon the death of Paul, (we are released from vows after a person dies), and the death of the Temple and Jerusalem, began preaching to the Gentile and the Jew of grace through faith. He preached the gospel of Paul, but if any were saved as he, he would tell them to continue in the Grace that God had provided for Them.

The final thing I guess I would say on this matter is what does it matter

Then why would we believe anything in the bible if it doesn't matter. Don't know about you, but I believe more like a Baptist than like a Catholic, Church of Christ, or the various cults that think they are saved like the Jew.

Okay now we're down to cheap shots, eh?

So tell me when did the marriage supper of the Lamb take place?

Just tit for tat, you know.

The marriage supper of the Lamb is a future event, because His bride is not complete yet. You are in fact misunderstanding Scripture because you say that when we are saved and become a part of His body that is when the marriage takes place, but that is an incorrect view.

That is an incorrect view for a couple of reasons. There would have to be a great number of wedding feasts if each person indvidually was married to the Lamb. And then you would have unfaithful Christians married to the Lamb, which is not going to happen.

Why did I say what I said? I said it because that is what scripture says. If we believe the Bible we know this is future, of which you agree, and if we believe the bible His wife (Israel) has made herself ready, Revelation 19:7, and then we know the marriage supper comes a couple of verses later.
Your reasoning has disproved your stance in the matter.

You can see this picture in the OT of the story of Isaac and Rebekah that the marriage does not take place until after the rapture. You can also see this picture in the story of Ruth and you can see that the marriage doesn't take place until after the judgment seat of Christ.

You can also see in Revelation that the marriage doesn't take place until after the rapture and after the judgement seat of Christ.

I have never said otherwise, as I see Israel is the Bride in prophecy. Today He is the Head, and we the Church make up Body, "like" in marriage. The Lamb came for His lost sheep, and that is Israel.

Due to length will continue

 

[ituttut]

Continued to J. Jump
Quote:
I Corinthians 12:27, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."


This says we are the body of Christ not the bride of Christ. And yes I completely agree that we "church" are the body of Christ. We are His body and will become His bride at a later time (although that time is coming soon!)

That should be enough Scripture or do you need specific references?

What can we do with the scripture where Paul says we are married to Him? This is a metaphor to show the similarity of being one as in husband and wife. Earthly explanation trying to make the spiritual understanding. The Church is all we members united in Him, joined into a single entity. "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

We are members and are united, joined into a single entity with Him. Our body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit that lives within us (I Cor. 6:19) so in this manner we are joined with Body, or married in His Church. He is the Church that we are married to. If we are in the body of Christ, then we are of the Bridegroom now.

Theologians brought in the term "Bride of Christ" which is not scriptural. They do this trying to make sense in their theory of trying to make Revelation 19:7-9 fit their belief. The correct term is in 21:9, "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." Bride, Lamb, and wife all are tied to prophecy, and these three in that order is Israel.

Scripture please for we that are One with Him, in His Body. He is my Lord, and He is the King of the Jews, higher than all other Kings. He has made kings and priests of His people, and there will be other kings that will bring their glory and honor.


Yes check out the story of Saul and David. He will return as King of kings and Lord of lords because he will have kings and lords under Him that will help Him rule the earth from the heavens where Satan and his angels are currently reigning (again reference the story of Saul/David). Those kings and lords will be faithful, overcoming Christians.

The Christian is of the heavenlies, and David is of the earth.

Then as you say He will at some point in the future make kings and lords of His brother Israel to rule from the physical earth.

You seem to be showing David to be King of Kings and Lord or Lord', but I may be mistaken.

What many people fail to understand is there is two realms of rulership over the earth. There is a heavenly rulership (Daniel says the heavens do rule) and then there is an earthly rulership and these two realms are linked. All the nations, except Israel, are under the guidance from the heavens, while Israel is under the guidance of Michael, becuase Israel is not to be reckoned among the nations.

And it will be the same in the future. Christians will have no part in ruling over Israel. That will be left up to the disciples, but it's not their own kingdom, but under the kingdom of Christ.

ituttut:

You're now losing me. Same in the "future"? Understand Christians, Israel, and Apostles.

J. Jump: Aren't we among those He inherits?


Let me quote the verse again.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Who is it that is inheriting in this verse? It is those people that have their eyes opened and turn from darkness to light and from the kingdom of Satan to God. These people receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance.

It says nothing about Christ inheriting these people, but these people inheriting something.

ituttut: Paul says it takes the "whole" Bible to rightly divide the Word, and many times we need more than one verse to bring out the full meaning. The Acts reference shows we do inherit Him, but also shows He sanctified His inheritance according to scripture - "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession," Psalms 2:8, and there are others we find as we divide His Word.

Colossians 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
Again I thought this was pretty straight forward. Paul is telling the Colossians that THEY will receive the reward of the inheritance. It doesn't say that Christ inherits the Colossians.

So I'm still not sure where you get that we are Christ's inheritance.

I had difficulty for years also trying to make sense of many verses, and was finding too many contradictions on various subjects. Not until I was allowed to see the "dispensation" of Paul's gospel were these "contradictions" taken away, and further understanding gained.

As we know Christ Jesus did ask He have we Gentiles for His "inheritance" (Damascus Road is proof), gives further sight into some verses such as this one in Colossians. As in the Acts "two-way" inheritance can be seen. We receive of our inheritance, and see it is from He that inherited us, our Lord Christ whom we serve.

 

[J. Jump]

Not Biblical. Becoming a Christian and living a Christian life are one and the same.

If it is Biblical why haven't you been able to find a passage of Scripture that says so in context? If you have one please list it or them and let's deal with them.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

If a man is born again is he the same person?

The answer to that question is no he is not the same. We are a new creation in Christ, but it has nothing to do with whether or not we lose our sin nature. When we are created as a new creation we become neither Jew nor Gentile, neither male or female.

Our sin nature still remains within us. It seems as though you think we lose our sin nature.

Does he still allow sin to be the master of his life? The answer is no.

That's your answer. That's not what the Bible says and I even showed you using a verse of Scripture that you quoted. Go back and read the Romans verse its says SHOULD NOT. Why does it say SHOULD NOT if it is really supposed to say will not in your opinion.

Read Ephesians 2:10. It says we SHOULD do go works. Why doesn't it say we will do good works according to your opinion?

Do you think the Holy Spirit just slipped up on those two verses? And that's just two of many that can be shown to illustrate the same point.

You want an "easy" salvation (your words).

Only because it's Biblical. There's nothing hard in receiving a gift.

That is not what the Bible (and Jesus Christ) teach.

Again please show me your Scriptural evidence and let's examine it in light of context and see.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Great Scripture, except it's not dealing with eternal salvation, it's dealing with the kingdom of the heavens. Not the same message.

Narrow is the way. That describes a trip or process of achieving salvation. Not a simple one-time acceptance. THAT IS BIBLICAL.

Exactly correct, because it's not talking about eternal salvation it is talking about the salvation of the soul. And the salvation of the soul is not a one-time event, but rather a process.

If you would keep these two messages distinct and separate as they were intended then a lot of your confusion would cease. You are taking an apple and an orange and trying to make a appange instead of enjoying the Truth of the apple and the Truth of the orange.

 

[J. Jump]

We today are in the "kingdom of Christ" in His Body, and He is in heaven in the "kingdom of God".

I think the Bible teaches something quite different. How can a kingdom be a body? A kingdom is a governmental thing, not a human or spiritual body. There is a real kingdom that is coming (future) that will be headed by the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

The church which is the body of Christ will be used to produce the bride of Christ (which will be a part of the body - the called out of the called) and together with Christ they will (future) rule from the heavens.

Paul preaches this "kingdom" to the Gentile, and the Jew, but not the "kingdom" promised Israel.

Absolutely. Christians will not participate in the physical rule of the earth. That will come via the nation of Israel as the head of the nations on earth. That physical kingdom was promised to the nation of Israel and it will be fulfilled.

The bride of Christ will rule from the heavens. That is the spiritual aspect of the kingdom that was offered to Israel in the NT and was rejected. That is the offer that is now available to the one new man in Christ to be accepted or rejected.

I can point you to some excellent resource material if you want further study on this topic. Just PM me.

It looks to me he was saved just as Moses, David, Peter and the rest, and will have to wait until the "last time", but what he wrote is to the Jew today. I do believe however as you say, he upon the death of Paul, (we are released from vows after a person dies), and the death of the Temple and Jerusalem, began preaching to the Gentile and the Jew of grace through faith. He preached the gospel of Paul, but if any were saved as he, he would tell them to continue in the Grace that God had provided for Them.

I didn't quote your post above this one, because I couldn't follow what you were trying to say. It seems as though through this and the section that was above this that you are trying to say that there are two different salvations, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles until a certain piont and then it becomes the same salvation. The Bible says that ALL are saved by grace through faith. The Jews of the OT, NT and beyond.

There is not continuing process. Salvation is a one-time event during the person's life. That is true for Jews and Gentiles alike no matter when they were saved in history.

What can we do with the scripture where Paul says we are married to Him? This is a metaphor to show the similarity of being one as in husband and wife. Earthly explanation trying to make the spiritual understanding. The Church is all we members united in Him, joined into a single entity. "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

We are members and are united, joined into a single entity with Him. Our body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit that lives within us (I Cor. 6:19) so in this manner we are joined with Body, or married in His Church. He is the Church that we are married to. If we are in the body of Christ, then we are of the Bridegroom now.

Theologians brought in the term "Bride of Christ" which is not scriptural. They do this trying to make sense in their theory of trying to make Revelation 19:7-9 fit their belief. The correct term is in 21:9, "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." Bride, Lamb, and wife all are tied to prophecy, and these three in that order is Israel.

You still have not provided Scripture where Paul says we are married to Christ in the present. You are making an inference from a Scripture in which the inference you are trying to make simply isn't there. The church is not married to Christ. If that be true then this destroys several OT types, and makes the Bible contradict itself, which is an impossibility.

Again I have some great resource material that is available on this sujbect if you are interested. This is a topic all by itself and there's just not time or space to do it justice.

The Christian is of the heavenlies, and David is of the earth.

Exactly! Faithful, overcoming Christians will rule with Christ from the heavens and then Israel will rule with their Brother Christ who will sit on the throne of David from the physical earth.

You seem to be showing David to be King of Kings and Lord or Lord', but I may be mistaken.

NO...Christ is the King of kings and the Lord of lords! He and He alone!!

Paul says it takes the "whole" Bible to rightly divide the Word, and many times we need more than one verse to bring out the full meaning. The Acts reference shows we do inherit Him, but also shows He sanctified His inheritance according to scripture - "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession," Psalms 2:8, and there are others we find as we divide His Word.

Itutut I completely agree that we need to compare Scripture with Scripture, but we have to compare same Scripture to same Scripture. You are taking a passage of Scripture that talks about the inheritance of the faithful, overcoming Christian and comparing it to Christ's inheritance and drawing a ill conclusion.

The only conclusion that we can draw from comparing these two Scriptures is that as co-heirs with Christ the faithful, overcoming Christian will inherit the same thing Christ does. Christ does not inherit overcoming Christians, He marrys them. He inherits heathens and the uttermost parts of the earth. How can you inherit yourself?

see it is from He that inherited us

Again you have shown no Scriptural evidence of this. Every passage of Scripture you have shown that supposedly shows this truth has done nothing, but shown the opposite.